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* 20:01 < kymara> --------------------------------------------------
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* 20:01 < kymara> ---Meeting, agenda at https://sourceforge.net/projects/arianne/forums/forum/3192/topic/4045009 --
20:01 < kymara> --------------------------------------------------
* 20:01 < kymara> --------------------------------------------------
20:01 < kymara> ---Meeting, agenda at https://sourceforge.net/projects/arianne/forums/forum/3192/topic/4045009 --
* 20:01 < kymara> --------------------------------------------------First item is 'Updates on developer activity and goals '
* 20:0102 < kymara> First item is 'Updates on developer activitymadmetzger: andwould goalsyou 'start?
* 20:02 < madmetzger> okay
20:02 < kymara> madmetzger: would you start?
* 20:03 < madmetzger> recently i wasn't working that much. achievements seem to be more or less stable on the server side
20:02 < madmetzger> okay
* 20:03 < hendrik> this basicall means: What are you planning to do? What are you working on now? Have you given up working of something, becaues you lost intersted or because there were difficulties? Which?
20:03 < madmetzger> recently i wasn't working that much. achievements seem to be more or less stable on the server side
* 20:04 < madmetzger> i started to implement a prototype for displaying the event of reaching an event in the client
20:03 < hendrik> this basicall means: What are you planning to do? What are you working on now? Have you given up working of something, becaues you lost intersted or because there were difficulties? Which?
* 20:04 < madmetzger> istruggling started to implementthere a prototype for displaying the event of reachingbit anwith eventdrawing inand theplacing clientit
* 20:04 < madmetzger> strugglingmaybe therekiheru acould bitgive withme drawingsome andadvice placingon it
* 20:04 < madmetzger> maybe kiheru could givean meearly somestart adviceis onin itcvs
* 20:05 < kymara> what about spells? I kind of saw some commits again recently
20:04 < madmetzger> an early start is in cvs
* 20:05 < madmetzger> and i also started again to work a bit on spells and connecting that to the client side
20:05 < kymara> what about spells? I kind of saw some commits again recently
* 20:05 < madmetzger> andthere's isome also started again touncommited work a bit on spells andbut connectingmy thatfirst toexample theisn't clientworking sideatm.
* 20:0506 < madmetzger> therei didn'st somefind uncommitedthe worktime butyet myto firstfigure exampleout isn'twhere the workingreason atm.is
* 20:06 < kiheru> displaying a notification a bit like the mockup should not be too hard (except for the translucency which is not really an option)
20:06 < madmetzger> i didn't find the time yet to figure out where the reason is
* 20:0607 < kiherumadmetzger> displayingbut ai'd notificationappreciate asome bithelp likethere for the mockupclient shouldside notas beit tooseems hardquite (exceptnew for the translucencyclient to me to have actions whichthat isneed notclicks reallyto antwo option)objects
* 20:07 < madmetzger> but i'd appreciate some help there forhave thea client side ascommand itto seemscast quitea newspell foras theslash clientaction to metest toit. havei actionsthink thati'll needcommit clicks to twothat objectssoon
* 20:08 < kymara> madmetzger: that sounds good, thank you. is there anything else from you?
20:07 < madmetzger> i have a client side command to cast a spell as slash action to test it. i think i'll commit that soon
* 20:08 < hendrik> We have the content side of achievements as seperate entry on the agenda later.
20:07 -!- Blue_away is now known as Bluelads4
* 20:08 < madmetzger> no, that's all
20:08 < kymara> madmetzger: that sounds good, thank you. is there anything else from you?
* 20:09 < kymara> ok, who next, kiheru?
20:08 < hendrik> We have the content side of achievements as seperate entry on the agenda later.
* 20:10 < kiheru> lately I have been just trying to fix known and potential bugs in the client
20:08 < madmetzger> no, that's all
* 20:10 < kiheru> I think I'm about done with those I can reproduce
20:09 < kymara> ok, who next, kiheru?
* 20:10 < kiheru> latelyso I'm have been just trying to fix known andavailable potentialfor bugsother inprojects theif clientneeded
* 20:1012 < kiheruhendrik> I think I'many aboutplans doneon withwhat thoseyou Iwant canto reproducedo?
* 20:12 < kymara> perhaps the group GUI?
20:10 < kiheru> so I'm available for other projects if needed
* 20:12 < hendrikkiheru> any plans on whatnot, youreally. wantwhatever tois do?needed
* 20:13 < kiheru> for the groups I really don't have a good idea what it should look like
20:12 < kymara> perhaps the group GUI?
* 20:13 < storyteller> maybe we can bring up some ideas?
20:12 < kiheru> not, really. whatever is needed
* 20:13 < kymara> maybe we can try brainstorm that a bit?
20:13 < kiheru> for the groups I really don't have a good idea what it should look like
* 20:13 < hendrik> later, please.
20:13 < storyteller> maybe we can bring up some ideas?
* 20:13 < kymara> maybeafter tryng weout canthe tryfeature brainstormin thatthe atest bit?server
* 20:13 < hendrikkymara> later, please.yes
* 20:13 < kymara> after tryng out the feature in theokay, testhendrik servernext?
* 20:1314 < kymarahendrik> yesokay.
* 20:14 < martinf> perhaps look at the multi chat features of messengers like skype for the group gui?
20:13 < kymara> okay, hendrik next?
* 20:14 < hendrik> okayI have be doing smaller things recently.
* 20:14 < hendrik> some profiling and performance optimazion that are pending.
20:14 < martinf> perhaps look at the multi chat features of messengers like skype for the group gui?
* 20:1415 < hendrik> IAnd lots of projects i have bestarted to think doingabout smallerbut thingsthen recentlypostponed.
* 20:15 < hendrik> Like rewriting the perception calculation and serialization which takes about 60% of turn times nowadays.
20:14 < hendrik> some profiling and performance optimazion that are pending.
* 20:1516 < hendrik> AndIn lotsthe offar projectsfuture i'd have startedlike to thinkhave abouta web client, but theni am scared about postponedthat.
* 20:16 < hendrik> It will be a lot of work, probably for more than a year, and maintaining two clients would be very stressful for us.
20:15 < hendrik> Like rewriting the perception calculation and serialization which takes about 60% of turn times nowadays.
* 20:16 < hendrik> In the fartechnology futureis i'dnot likeripe toand we have a web client, but i amno scaredexperiance abouton that.
* 20:17 < hendrik> What I might do is porting the text client to a web page.
20:16 < hendrik> It will be a lot of work, probably for more than a year, and maintaining two clients would be very stressful for us.
* 20:1617 < hendrik> theThe technologycurses client is not ripe and we havetoo noinstable experiancefor onmy thattastes.
* 20:18 < kymara> agreed, i went back to textclient
20:17 < hendrik> What I might do is porting the text client to a web page.
* 20:1718 < hendrik> TheShort turn, cursesi clientthink isachievements tooand instablegroups/chat forchannels myare tastesimportant.
* 20:18 < kymarahendrik> agreed,because ithey wentgive backmotivation to textclientplayers.
* 20:18 < hendrik> Short turn,and i thinklike achievementsto andhelp groups/chatwith channelsthe arecontent importantside.
* 20:1819 < hendrik> because they givethat's motivationbasically tofrom playersme.
* 20:1819 < hendrikkymara> andokay, iwho likeelse towants helpto withgive thean contentupdate? side.martinf?
* 20:19 < hendrikmartinf> that's basically from me.sure
* 20:19 < martinf> My last bigger thing was the refactoring and improvement of producer / merchandizer code.
20:19 < kymara> okay, who else wants to give an update? martinf?
* 20:19 < martinf> sureAfter that I solved some bugs here and there.
* 20:20 < martinf> That one regarding website not searching for substrings is too complex for me as beginner in apache rewrite rules.
20:19 < martinf> My last bigger thing was the refactoring and improvement of producer / merchandizer code.
* 20:1920 < martinf> Afterthats thatit I solved some bugs here and there.:)
* 20:20 < kymara> any plans for future?
20:20 < martinf> That one regarding website not searching for substrings is too complex for me as beginner in apache rewrite rules.
* 20:20 < martinf> thatsnothing it :)special
* 20:20 < kymara> anycan we suggest you things to help with, do you think plansyou'll forhave futuretime?
* 20:2021 < martinf> nothingyes, some time is always specialavailable
* 20:2021 < kymarahendrik> I can we suggest you things to help with, do you think you'llthe haveapache time?stuff.
* 20:21 < martinf> yes,very some time is always availablegood:)
* 20:21 < kymara> yes it might be good to have someone other than me and hend understand the website
20:21 < hendrik> I can help with the apache stuff.
* 20:22 < kymara> who else wants to give an update on their activities and plans?
20:21 < martinf> very good:)
* 20:22 < Bluelads4> hmm I can go on if noone else wants :)
20:21 < kymara> yes it might be good to have someone other than me and hend understand the website
* 20:23 < kymara> sure
20:22 < kymara> who else wants to give an update on their activities and plans?
* 20:23 < Bluelads4> I made some npcs and quests and my first tiled map (wohoo) earlier and I currently plan another quest which grows in my mind at the moment
20:22 < Bluelads4> hmm I can go on if noone else wants :)
* 20:23 < Bluelads4> ehm yes that is mainly everything :D
20:23 < kymara> sure
* 20:24 < kymara> is there anything (in general) you need support in?
20:23 < Bluelads4> I made some npcs and quests and my first tiled map (wohoo) earlier and I currently plan another quest which grows in my mind at the moment
* 20:25 < Bluelads4> not at the moment, I wrote some notes down for the quest idea and wanted to start with writing the quest soon, I'm not sure about the last quest which I made, there are some errors I bet :D
20:23 < Bluelads4> ehm yes that is mainly everything :D
* 20:26 < kymara> ok, we can help test, and please add it to the testing page if you didn't already
20:24 < kymara> is there anything (in general) you need support in?
* 20:26 < kymara> anyone else got an update for us or shall i finish up?
20:25 < Bluelads4> not at the moment, I wrote some notes down for the quest idea and wanted to start with writing the quest soon, I'm not sure about the last quest which I made, there are some errors I bet :D
* 20:27 < storyteller> well, maybe I could say my current project idea?
20:26 < kymara> ok, we can help test, and please add it to the testing page if you didn't already
* 20:27 < kymara> yes
20:26 < kymara> anyone else got an update for us or shall i finish up?
* 20:27 -!- monsterdhal [~monsterdh<(a)>brsg-4dbba367.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #arianne
20:27 < storyteller> well, maybe I could say my current project idea?
* 20:27 < storyteller> Well, there already were some questions about what I plan and what I want to do.
20:27 < kymara> yes
* 20:27 < storyteller> So I'd like to give a short summary here
20:27 -!- monsterdhal [~monsterdh<(a)>brsg-4dbba367.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #arianne
* 20:2729 < storyteller> WellCurrently I plan some quests, therewhich alreadyare werebased someon questionseach aboutother. whatSo Ithere planis anda whatlittle Iquest- wantrow towhich do.is build in a story
* 20:2730 < storyteller> Sothe I'dbasical likething is to giveintroduce asneaking and well, let's shortsay summarytactical hereplaying
* 20:2931 < storyteller> Currentlyso I plan somethese quests, which are not based on eachonly other.killing So there is a little quest-creatures, rowbut whichalso isnot buildbeen inattacked aby storyothers
* 20:3032 < storyteller> theI basicalheard thingabout isideas tofor introduce sneakingguilds and well, let'salso saya tacticalthief playingguild
* 20:32 < kymara> we don't have any plans in place for the near future regarding guilds
20:31 < storyteller> so these quests are not based on only killing creatures, but also not been attacked by others
* 20:32 < kymara> so please dont rely on that
20:32 < storyteller> I heard about ideas for guilds and also a thief guild
* 20:33 < storyteller> yes
20:32 < kymara> we don't have any plans in place for the near future regarding guilds
* 20:33 < kymara> okay, sounds interesting and ambitious. do you have an idea how to break down the ideas into manageable chunks?
20:32 < kymara> so please dont rely on that
* 20:3335 < storyteller> yeswell, I planned a building where this should take place
* 20:35 < storyteller> there are also some beside- quests, which I wrote on the quest ideas page
20:33 < kymara> okay, sounds interesting and ambitious. do you have an idea how to break down the ideas into manageable chunks?
* 20:36 < hendrik> with such a huge project, i think it is important to do it in small steps and commit them for other tosee.
20:35 < storyteller> well, I planned a building where this should take place
* 20:36 < kymara> yes, and to see the results :)
20:35 < storyteller> there are also some beside- quests, which I wrote on the quest ideas page
* 20:36 < hendrik> to see*
20:36 < hendrik> with such a huge project, i think it is important to do it in small steps and commit them for other tosee.
* 20:36 < kymara> yes,let andus toknow seewhen theyou resultsneed :)help, storyteller
* 20:36 < hendrikstoryteller> tookay see*:)
* 20:36 < kymara> let usanything knowor whenanyone youelse needin help,this storytellersection?
* 20:36 < storyteller> okayso, :)well, this project is basically what I plan for the near future
* 20:37 < storyteller> so thats it for now :)
20:36 < kymara> anything or anyone else in this section?
* 20:37 < kymara> okay, so me then.
20:36 < storyteller> so, well, this project is basically what I plan for the near future
* 20:37 < kymara> Now that the quest history is finished I am not sure what to do! Other than my normal project activity.
20:37 < storyteller> so thats it for now :)
* 20:38 < hendrik> may I suggest you look at the content side of achievements?
20:37 < kymara> okay, so me then.
* 20:3738 < kymara> NowI'll thathelp thewith questachievements, historybecause isthe finishedcode Iis amstable notbut sureI whatcan tohelp do!on Other than my normalthe projectdesign activityside.
* 20:38 < kymara> yes, hendrik.
20:38 < hendrik> may I suggest you look at the content side of achievements?
* 20:38 * hendrik smiles.
20:38 < kymara> I'll help with achievements, because the code is stable but I can help on the design side.
* 20:38 < kymara> as an older player who doesn't play so much now I'm also concerned about back-calculation.
20:38 < kymara> yes, hendrik.
* 20:38 < kymara> that would need some intensive database work and may not even be possible ... we'll see.
20:38 * hendrik smiles.
* 20:3839 < kymara> asI'm ana olderbit playerconcerned whoby doesn'tthe playnumber soof muchpatches nowwith I'mchatlogs alsoready concernedto write junit abouttests back-calculation.on
* 20:40 < kymara> i wrote up a little guide on junit testing for quests so it should be easy. i would rather not do all those myself as i think that its the kind of thing other people can pick up too .. so if anyone likes to help with that I'd be grateful
20:38 < kymara> that would need some intensive database work and may not even be possible ... we'll see.
* 20:3940 < kymara> I'mi aput bit concerned byall the number of patches withunder chatlogsthe readysame to write junit testscategory: onchatlog
* 20:40 < martinf> i may help a bit here
20:40 < kymara> i wrote up a little guide on junit testing for quests so it should be easy. i would rather not do all those myself as i think that its the kind of thing other people can pick up too .. so if anyone likes to help with that I'd be grateful
* 20:4042 < kymara> iokay put all the patches under the same category:thank chatlogyou
* 20:42 < kymara> So, I think if anyone else wanted to update us they'd have said by now, lets move on, to:
20:40 < martinf> i may help a bit here
* 20:42 < kymara> okay'Client stability, maintenance and thankStendhal you1.0'
* 20:43 < kymara> We have achieved some great things in 2010, some long standing feature requests which make me start to believe Stendhal is ready for 1.0
20:42 < kymara> So, I think if anyone else wanted to update us they'd have said by now, lets move on, to:
* 20:44 < kymara> They include the new sound system, rewritten client with windows off game screen, trade NPC and trade GUI, quest history, and more.
20:42 < kymara> 'Client stability, maintenance and Stendhal 1.0'
* 20:44 < hendrik> Yes, last year was very good.
20:43 < kymara> We have achieved some great things in 2010, some long standing feature requests which make me start to believe Stendhal is ready for 1.0
* 20:44 < kymara> We still lack client stability across all platforms, and I think we'd all want to feel comfortable in the client before we announce it stable
20:44 < kymara> They include the new sound system, rewritten client with windows off game screen, trade NPC and trade GUI, quest history, and more.
* 20:4445 < hendrik> Yes,I think lastwe yearneed wasto verydefine good"stability".
* 20:45 < kymara> Testing is really, really hard ... so what we need is enough time
20:44 < kymara> We still lack client stability across all platforms, and I think we'd all want to feel comfortable in the client before we announce it stable
* 20:45 < kymara> hendrik: acceptable CPU, memory usage, would be a start
20:45 < hendrik> I think we need to define "stability".
* 20:46 < kymara> but yes, it is probably a good idea to have some criteria, and some way to measure them, that we can feel confident the client is stable
20:45 < kymara> Testing is really, really hard ... so what we need is enough time
* 20:4546 < kymarahendrik> hendrik:When acceptablei CPU,hear memorythat usageterm, wouldi bethink aof starttwo things:
* 20:46 < kiheru> memory should be fairly good by now. performance is a problem as it's very system dependent
20:46 < kymara> but yes, it is probably a good idea to have some criteria, and some way to measure them, that we can feel confident the client is stable
* 20:46 < hendrik> Whena) iit heardoes thatnot term, i think of two things:crash
* 20:47 < hendrik> b) it does not require many changes.
20:46 < kiheru> memory should be fairly good by now. performance is a problem as it's very system dependent
* 20:4647 < hendrikkymara> a)hendrik, iti'll doesget notonto b) in a crashmoment.
* 20:47 < hendrik> b)I think it does not requirecrash often, but i am not a hard manycore changesplayer.
* 20:47 < kymara> anyway, for the performance part, as we lack in ability to test thoroughly across all platforms, I just wanted to flag up that we may need some quiet time without too many new features in a release
20:47 < kymara> hendrik, i'll get onto b) in a moment.
* 20:48 < kymara> what hendrik puts as point b) there is what I meant by 'maintenance' in this section - hendrik, do you want to explain?
20:47 < hendrik> I think it does not crash often, but i am not a hard core player.
* 20:49 < hendrik> Currently we need to update the client on every new release.
20:47 < kymara> anyway, for the performance part, as we lack in ability to test thoroughly across all platforms, I just wanted to flag up that we may need some quiet time without too many new features in a release
* 20:49 < hendrik> It is obvious that the client need updates when we add new gui elements like the quest log.
20:48 < kymara> what hendrik puts as point b) there is what I meant by 'maintenance' in this section - hendrik, do you want to explain?
* 20:4950 < hendrik> CurrentlyBut it needs updates when we needadd tonew updateimages, theand clientit onneeds everyupdates when we add new releasekinds of items or entities.
* 20:4950 < hendrik> ItMy isgoal obviousfor 1.0 is that thewe have a client needthat updateswill whenbe wecompatible addwith newthe guiserver elementsfor likea theyear, questdespite us adding new logcontent.
* 20:5051 < hendrik> Butthat itis needswithout updates, whenthink we add new images, andof it needsbeing updatesincluded whenin weDebian/Ubuntu, addpolicy newwould kinds ofnot itemsaccept orour entitiesupdater.
* 20:51 < hendrik> i think this are basically two tasks
20:50 < hendrik> My goal for 1.0 is that we have a client that will be compatible with the server for a year, despite us adding new content.
* 20:52 < hendrik> - find a way to get new images
20:51 < hendrik> that is without updates, think of it being included in Debian/Ubuntu, policy would not accept our updater.
* 20:5152 < hendrik> i- make the client less thinksmart thisin arethe basicallyEntity, twoEntity2DView tasksarea.
* 20:52 < hendrik> It does not need to know about well_source, fish_source for example, that just something a player can click with some animation and some special cursor.
20:52 < hendrik> - find a way to get new images
* 20:5253 < hendrik> -Or makestackable/useable theitems, clientit lessshould smartget inthat theinformation Entity,from Entity2DViewthe areaserver.
* 20:53 < kiheru> for quite a few things it needs to know just the available operations
20:52 < hendrik> It does not need to know about well_source, fish_source for example, that just something a player can click with some animation and some special cursor.
* 20:54 * hendrik nods.
20:53 < hendrik> Or stackable/useable items, it should get that information from the server.
* 20:5355 < kiherukymara> for quite a fewCould thingsyou itwrite needssomething toabout knowthis juston the availablewiki operationsmaybe?
* 20:5455 *< hendrik> nods.okay
* 20:55 < kymara> Couldquite youa writefew future concepts have something aboutto refer to .. that might be good? or tracker tasks if its already thisbroken ondown thein wikisome maybeway?
* 20:57 < kymara> I forgot to say that I'd still hope for certain other features for Stendhal 1.0 ..
20:55 < hendrik> okay
* 20:57 < kymara> That's achievements, groups, and a solution to player's perceived storage problem
20:55 < kymara> quite a few future concepts have something to refer to .. that might be good? or tracker tasks if its already broken down in some way?
* 20:57 < kymarahendrik> Iit's forgotabout to say that I'da stillyear hopeif forwe certainkeep otherdoing featuresa forrelease Stendhalevery 1.04-6 .weeks.
* 20:5758 < kymara> That's achievements, groupseheh, and awe solutiondont' even have to player'sgo perceivedfrom storage0.99 to problem1.0
* 20:5758 < hendrikkymara> it'sI aboutdont a year ifthink we keep doing ashould releaselet everyarithmetic 4-6bother weeks.us
* 20:58 < martinf> what is the perceived storage problem?
20:58 < kymara> eheh, and we dont' even have to go from 0.99 to 1.0
* 20:58 < hendrik> bag too small.
20:58 < kymara> I dont think we should let arithmetic bother us
* 20:59 < kymara> players collect too much junk
20:58 < martinf> what is the perceived storage problem?
* 20:59 < kiheru> it's never been decimal. we just don't release patch versions often
20:58 < hendrik> bag too small.
* 20:59 < kymara> playersand collectchect too much junksmall
* 20:59 < martinf> ok, i know this problem as player;)
20:59 < kiheru> it's never been decimal. we just don't release patch versions often
* 20:59 < kymara> they make clones to just have extra chests in semos bank, instead of using city banks say
20:59 < kymara> and chect too small
* 20:59 < kymara> okay
20:59 < martinf> ok, i know this problem as player;)
* 20:59 < kymara> so shall we move onto Containers?
20:59 < kymara> they make clones to just have extra chests in semos bank, instead of using city banks say
* 21:00 < kymara> How can we consolidate the existing work and get containers in game? A lot of work is already done - kiheru may you summarise that?
20:59 < kymara> okay
* 21:02 < kiheru> hmm. I don't know if much works has really been done. Mainly I have thought that a container from a side panel slot would be opened in the side panel (and kept open during zone changes), and those opened from the game screen should be opened like corpses and chests are done now
20:59 < kymara> so shall we move onto Containers?
* 21:03 < kiheru> Saving and restoring an item with a slot containing other items works (nothing about that in cvs, but it's a fairly small change)
21:00 < kymara> How can we consolidate the existing work and get containers in game? A lot of work is already done - kiheru may you summarise that?
* 21:05 < kymara> I tended to get the sense that theres just one last piece of cooperation until they'd work in game
21:02 < kiheru> hmm. I don't know if much works has really been done. Mainly I have thought that a container from a side panel slot would be opened in the side panel (and kept open during zone changes), and those opened from the game screen should be opened like corpses and chests are done now
* 21:05 < kymara> is that totally wrong?
21:03 < kiheru> Saving and restoring an item with a slot containing other items works (nothing about that in cvs, but it's a fairly small change)
* 21:05 < kymara> as per https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2933768&group_id=1111&atid=973767
21:05 < kymara> I tended to get the sense that theres just one last piece of cooperation until they'd work in game
* 21:0506 < kymarakiheru> istwo thatmajor totallypieces, wrong?really
* 21:06 < kiheru> that one, and equip depending on slot names
21:05 < kymara> as per https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2933768&group_id=1111&atid=973767
* 21:07 < kiheru> I haven't tested the gui for containers for a good while, because I have been trying to figure out the backend problems first
21:06 < kiheru> two major pieces, really
* 21:08 < kymara> Should we think of another solution to the storage poblem?
21:06 < kiheru> that one, and equip depending on slot names
* 21:08 < kymara> *problem
21:07 < kiheru> I haven't tested the gui for containers for a good while, because I have been trying to figure out the backend problems first
* 21:09 < kiheru> slot names are important unless we want to have different rpclasses for all different types of containers
21:08 < kymara> Should we think of another solution to the storage poblem?
* 21:09 < hendrik> the equipment code could be smarter.
21:08 < kymara> *problem
* 21:09 < hendrik> well, that is a long standing todo.
21:09 < kiheru> slot names are important unless we want to have different rpclasses for all different types of containers
* 21:10 < kymara> should we move on?
21:09 < hendrik> the equipment code could be smarter.
* 21:10 < kymara> I'm conscious that the achievements discussion could take some time
21:09 < hendrik> well, that is a long standing todo.
* 21:10 < kiheru> having "content" for all would work fine, as long the equip code can figure out forbidden moves
21:10 < kymara> should we move on?
* 21:11 < hendrik> yes.
21:10 < kymara> I'm conscious that the achievements discussion could take some time
* 21:1012 < kiheru> havingand "content"would forhelp allkeeping wouldthe workclient fine,dumb aswhen longsomeone thewants equipto codeadd cana figurespecial outcontainer forbiddenfor movesflowers
* 21:1112 < hendrik> yes.
* 21:14 < kiheru> I could make something based on the assumption the slot will be always called "content". it does not need to go in the game before equip is smarter
21:12 < kiheru> and would help keeping the client dumb when someone wants to add a special container for flowers
* 21:15 < kiheru> we can move on now, maybe
21:12 < hendrik> yes
* 21:16 < kymara> Okay. Thank you
21:14 < kiheru> I could make something based on the assumption the slot will be always called "content". it does not need to go in the game before equip is smarter
* 21:16 < kymara> The last part of this meeting is to discuss achievements in some detail
21:15 < kiheru> we can move on now, maybe
* 21:17 < kymara> Here's a list of implemented achievements: http://stendhalgame.org/wiki/Stendhal_Achievements
21:16 < kymara> Okay. Thank you
* 21:17 < kymara> do we want them all?
21:16 < kymara> The last part of this meeting is to discuss achievements in some detail
* 21:17 < kymara> HereIt's ahelpful listto ofconsider, implementedhow many players will really have reached these achievements:, http://stendhalgame.org/wiki/Stendhal_Achievementsand consider your own player
* 21:18 < kymara> hendrik has already done some work to integreate achievements into the website
21:17 < kymara> do we want them all?
* 21:18 < kymara> https://stendhalgame.org/?id=content/scripts/character&test=beta&name=kymara
21:17 -!- mizerydearia [~necro<(a)>unaffiliated/necrodearia] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
* 21:1719 < kymara> It'sreplace helpfulkymara towith consider,your howcharacter manyname, playersyou willcan reallysee have reached thesewhat achievements, andyou consider your own playerreached
* 21:19 < kymara> https://stendhalgame.org/?id=content/game/achievement gives an overview
21:18 < kymara> hendrik has already done some work to integreate achievements into the website
* 21:19 < kymara> for all players
21:18 < kymara> https://stendhalgame.org/?id=content/scripts/character&test=beta&name=kymara
* 21:1920 < kymara> replaceAs kymarayou withcan yoursee characterthey nameare split into categories, youbut cansome seecategories whathave many achievements youand some very reachedfew
* 21:20 < hendrik> This needs work on the content side.
21:19 < kymara> https://stendhalgame.org/?id=content/game/achievement gives an overview
* 21:21 < hendrik> Some re-categorisations.
21:19 < kymara> for all players
* 21:21 < hendrik> adding some others, removing some.
21:20 < kymara> As you can see they are split into categories, but some categories have many achievements and some very few
* 21:21 < kymara> Yes.For example id like to change that age achievement
21:20 < hendrik> This needs work on the content side.
* 21:21 < kymara> by using instead a real time value and not time spent (idling?) in game
21:21 < hendrik> Some re-categorisations.
* 21:21 < hendrik> for each achievement, we have to think what the most effective way is to get it, and if that is bad.
21:21 < hendrik> adding some others, removing some.
* 21:2122 < kymarahendrik> Yes.Foryes, examplewe iddon't likewant people to changeidle thatarround ageall achievementday and night.
* 21:22 < Bluelads4> :D
21:21 < kymara> by using instead a real time value and not time spent (idling?) in game
* 21:22 < martinf> <- greenhorn :)
21:21 < hendrik> for each achievement, we have to think what the most effective way is to get it, and if that is bad.
* 21:22 < kymara> I am not sure if its in the scope of this meeting to go through each achievement in that way
21:22 < hendrik> yes, we don't want people to idle arround all day and night.
* 21:23 < hendrik> no, but it would be good if people volunteered to work on it.
21:22 < Bluelads4> :D
* 21:23 < kymara> but would anyone be willing to help think about it?
21:22 < martinf> <- greenhorn :)
* 21:23 < storyteller> who idles around all night and day? ;D
21:22 < kymara> I am not sure if its in the scope of this meeting to go through each achievement in that way
* 21:23 < hendrikkymara> no,and butmaybe itwe wouldcan beuse goodthe ifwiki peopleor volunteeredsomething to work ontrack it.that
* 21:23 < kymara> to help balance out the categories, we can recategorise, remove, but also add new ones from http://stendhalgame.org/wiki/Stendhal_Achievement_Ideas
21:23 < kymara> but would anyone be willing to help think about it?
* 21:24 < kymara> so if you see interesting achievements there in a category that is a little low, and you can add them, go ahead.
21:23 < storyteller> who idles around all night and day? ;D
* 21:2324 < kymaramadmetzger> and maybe wei can usetry thehelping wikithen oradding somethingthem to trackthe thatgame
* 21:24 < kymara> You already added all of them to the game madmetzger :D
21:23 < kymara> to help balance out the categories, we can recategorise, remove, but also add new ones from http://stendhalgame.org/wiki/Stendhal_Achievement_Ideas
* 21:24 < madmetzger> nope
21:24 < kymara> so if you see interesting achievements there in a category that is a little low, and you can add them, go ahead.
* 21:24 < madmetzgerkymara> ior cando tryyou helpingmean thenthe addingclient them to theside gameevent?
* 21:2425 < kymara> YouI already addedmean all ofso themfar to.. thewas game madmetzger :Dyou
* 21:25 < madmetzger> there are still some achievements that are not added from the ideas page
21:24 < madmetzger> nope
* 21:2425 < kymara> or do you meanyes, theI clientsaid sidethat event?)
* 21:25 < kymara> and I meaninvte allpeople soto faradd ..new wasones, but i think you did add all the existing ones?
* 21:25 < madmetzger> theresome are stillnot someyet achievementspossible thatto areadd notyet added fromlike the ideasmartial arts pageachievement
* 21:26 < madmetzger> i wanted to offer my help for adding those new ones
21:25 < kymara> yes, I said that )
* 21:28 < hendrik> anyone interested on the content side?
21:25 < kymara> and I invte people to add new ones, but i think you did add all the existing ones?
* 21:32 < martinf> what is still missing for the database migration, as you said kymara? the webpage you should already seems to work so far
21:25 < madmetzger> some are not yet possible to add yet like the martial arts achievement
* 21:32 < kymara> Well, my character has clearly already collected over 1000000 money from corpses
21:26 < madmetzger> i wanted to offer my help for adding those new ones
* 21:33 < kymara> But the achievements logging hasn't been in place that long.
21:28 < hendrik> anyone interested on the content side?
* 21:3233 < martinfkymara> whatSo isI stillmeant, missingcalculating forachievements from the database migration, aswhich youhappened said kymara?before the webpage you should already seems tologging workwas soin farplace.
* 21:33 < kymara> E.g. I know I collected a full set of black armor, and the itemlog could probably tell me that.
21:32 < kymara> Well, my character has clearly already collected over 1000000 money from corpses
* 21:33 < martinf> any ideas how thsi would be possible?
21:33 < kymara> But the achievements logging hasn't been in place that long.
* 21:34 < kymara> Yes, some crazy queries ...
21:33 < kymara> So I meant, calculating achievements from the database, which happened before the logging was in place.
* 21:3334 < kymara> E.g.The Iitemlog knowknows Iwhen collectedan aitem fullis set of black armor,registered and the itemlogfirst couldperson probablyto telltake mefrom the that.corpse)
* 21:34 < kymara> Likewise fight deathmatch 25 times
21:33 < martinf> any ideas how thsi would be possible?
* 21:35 < kymara> I mean, my DM points and fact that my helmet is at 124 shows that I must have done it, well, 122 times at least? (I forget what def it started at )
21:34 < kymara> Yes, some crazy queries ...
* 21:36 < martinf> i understand - that are many special cases to think about
21:34 < kymara> The itemlog knows when an item is registered and the first person to take from the corpse)
* 21:36 < kymara> kills recording didn't use to record the number .. but the database still knows that
21:34 < kymara> Likewise fight deathmatch 25 times
* 21:36 < kymara> Yes. And is it worth the effort?
21:35 < kymara> I mean, my DM points and fact that my helmet is at 124 shows that I must have done it, well, 122 times at least? (I forget what def it started at )
* 21:36 < martinfkiheru> i understand -dm thatcounting areis manynot specialworking casescorrectly toeven thinknow, aboutbtw
* 21:3637 < kymara> killsyes recordingkiheru didn'tI usesaw toyour recordbug thereport, numberI'm ..not butsure thewhat databasethe stillachievement knowsis thatusing
* 21:37 < kymara> You can already see why they'll encourage players to play, though? Why they're a good thing?
21:36 < kymara> Yes. And is it worth the effort?
* 21:37 < kymara> I see that it claims I didn't loot 1000000 money from creatures yet, and I go out to hunt :P even though I don't get xp ..
21:36 < kiheru> dm counting is not working correctly even now, btw
* 21:38 < Bluelads4> :D
21:37 < kymara> yes kiheru I saw your bug report, I'm not sure what the achievement is using
* 21:3739 < kymara> YouIn canterms alreadyof seemotivation, whyis they'llthe encouragewebiste playersview toof playper-character, though? Why they'reand a goodtotal summary, thingenough?
* 21:39 < madmetzger> i think a kind of hall of fame part could also be good
21:37 < kymara> I see that it claims I didn't loot 1000000 money from creatures yet, and I go out to hunt :P even though I don't get xp ..
* 21:40 < madmetzger> recent events is also a good point to show it, maybe?
21:38 < Bluelads4> :D
* 21:40 < martinf> ar a side-by-side view of 2 players
21:39 < kymara> In terms of motivation, is the webiste view of per-character, and a total summary, enough?
* 21:40 < martinf> *or
21:39 < madmetzger> i think a kind of hall of fame part could also be good
* 21:42 < kiheru> some sort of raking for them would be good. an achievement reached by 2 players could be more valuable than one reached by 1000
21:40 < madmetzger> recent events is also a good point to show it, maybe?
* 21:43 < martinf> i you sum op all this percentage numbers, you can calculate a over all achievement score
21:40 < martinf> ar a side-by-side view of 2 players
* 21:44 < kymara> martinf: can you explain in a bit more detail?
21:40 < martinf> *or
* 21:4244 < kiherumartinf> somewell, sortif ofan rakingi foram themone wouldof bethe good.players, that got an achievement, reachedonly bytwo 2got playersat couldall be-> more valuable than onei reachedget by50 1000%
* 21:4344 < martinf> if i youam sumone opof all100 this percentage numbers, you can calculate a overi allget achievement1 score%
* 21:45 < martinf> looking at the other achievements, we can build the average of this percent numbers
21:44 < kymara> martinf: can you explain in a bit more detail?
* 21:4445 < martinf> well, if an i am one ofthats the players,over that got anall achievement, only two got at all -> i get 50 %
* 21:4445 < martinf> iffor imost amplayers oneit ofwill 100be iin getthe 1/1000 range %however
* 21:4546 < martinf> lookingbut atbuilding thea otherhall achievements,of we can build the average offame thisis percentalways numbersinteresting
* 21:4546 < martinfkymara> thatsi thewondered overabout allan overall achievement score for the player, when you said that
* 21:4547 < martinf> for mostthe playersexample itabove willwith beonly in2 thedifferent achievement categories i 1/1000get range25.5 however%
* 21:47 < kymara> although the individual ones are something to work towards its still meaningful to be able to compare a single number (and much easier)
21:46 < martinf> but building a hall of fame is always interesting
* 21:47 < kymara> ok
21:46 < kymara> i wondered about an overall achievement score for the player, when you said that
* 21:47 < martinf> forto explain the example above with only 2 different achievement categories i get 25.5 %calculation
* 21:48 < madmetzger> but it means your score can fall which might cause confusion
21:47 < kymara> although the individual ones are something to work towards its still meaningful to be able to compare a single number (and much easier)
* 21:4748 < kymara> okhehe
* 21:4748 < martinf> toyes, explainlike the calculationscore at ohloh.org
* 21:49 < kiheru> it's sort of fame rating. players who does not do anything noteworthy for a while, should not be surprised when his fame fades
21:48 < madmetzger> but it means your score can fall which might cause confusion
* 21:50 < madmetzger> maybe yes, if we don't declare that as absolute points just a kind of rating and explain what is considered like it is done in the hall of fame part
21:48 < kymara> hehe
* 21:4850 < martinfmadmetzger> yes,not likenecessarily the scorewhole formula atof ohloh.orgcourse
* 21:50 < kymara> thats how the best and strongest etc is too
21:49 < kiheru> it's sort of fame rating. players who does not do anything noteworthy for a while, should not be surprised when his fame fades
* 21:50 < kymara> that can change if you don't play
21:50 < madmetzger> maybe yes, if we don't declare that as absolute points just a kind of rating and explain what is considered like it is done in the hall of fame part
* 21:51 < kiheru> sum(1/n) style rank has the advantage that we do not need so much effor for trying to judge the wort of various achievements
21:50 < madmetzger> not necessarily the whole formula of course
* 21:51 < kiheru> *worth
21:50 < kymara> thats how the best and strongest etc is too
* 21:5051 < kymara> that canyes changeits ifa youbit don'tmore playdynamic
* 21:52 < kymara> and is it okay now to show achievements in the client when they are achieved?
21:51 < kiheru> sum(1/n) style rank has the advantage that we do not need so much effor for trying to judge the wort of various achievements
* 21:53 < kymara> at first it seemed that had to be done on login.. i like instantaneous better though
21:51 < kiheru> *worth
* 21:56 < madmetzger> my approach was showing reached achievement at both times
21:51 < kymara> yes its a bit more dynamic
* 21:5256 < kymaramadmetzger> andto isavoid itgetting okayspammed nowwith toa showlot achievementsof inmessages theon clientlogin whenafter they arewere achieved?introduced
* 21:57 < madmetzger> and to avoid confusion to get the rat hunter achievement for killing 15 rats when killing a bear
21:53 < kymara> at first it seemed that had to be done on login.. i like instantaneous better though
* 21:59 < kiheru> should we skip showing old achievements at login anyway, and just give a message with a pointer to the player's web page
21:56 < madmetzger> my approach was showing reached achievement at both times
* 21:59 < kiheru> an old player will get a massive amount of achievements at the first login
21:56 < madmetzger> to avoid getting spammed with a lot of messages on login after they were introduced
* 22:00 < madmetzger> atm it should do just that. it gives a summarizing message with a hint to the web page (could be easily changed to the player's page)
21:57 < madmetzger> and to avoid confusion to get the rat hunter achievement for killing 15 rats when killing a bear
* 22:00 < storyteller> can there be an symbol in the menu panel?
21:59 < kiheru> should we skip showing old achievements at login anyway, and just give a message with a pointer to the player's web page
21* 22:5901 < kiherumadmetzger> anthat was the point, old playerplayers will get a massive amount of achievements at the firston login
* 22:01 < madmetzger> okay, the message is disabled unless you have a system property set
22:00 < madmetzger> atm it should do just that. it gives a summarizing message with a hint to the web page (could be easily changed to the player's page)
* 22:05 < kymara> So, some will help on content?I'll try coordinate that
22:00 < storyteller> can there be an symbol in the menu panel?
* 22:05 < kymara> the client needs work, kiheru will help mad
22:01 < madmetzger> that was the point, old players will get a massive amount of achievements on login
* 22:06 < kymara> any new ones to be written, mad will help with
22:01 < madmetzger> okay, the message is disabled unless you have a system property set
* 22:0506 < kymara> So,and somethere willare help onsome content?I'llmore tryideas coordinatefor thatwebsite..
* 22:0506 < kymara> theMartin would you make a clienttracker needsentry work,on kiheruyour willscore helpidea madplease?
* 22:06 < martinf> ok
22:06 < kymara> any new ones to be written, mad will help with
* 22:0607 < kymara> and there areno somedecision moreon ideasback forcalculating website..them?
* 22:08 < martinf> who are the long-time-players? :)
22:06 < kymara> Martin would you make a tracker entry on your score idea please?
* 22:08 < kymara> you can see 'eldest' on hall of fame
22:06 < martinf> ok
* 22:08 < martinf> as its in their interest
22:07 < kymara> and no decision on back calculating them?
* 22:08 < kymara> but that doesn't tell you who played most
22:08 < martinf> who are the long-time-players? :)
* 22:08 < kymara> you canmaybe seelook 'eldest'at onthe hallmost ofxp, famethen
* 22:0809 < martinf> as... to have itsan inaccurate theirback interestcalculation
* 22:0809 < kymara> butyes, thatlike doesn'tme tell you who played most:)
* 22:0809 < kymaramartinf> maybewell looki atmeant which of the mostpeople xp,here thenin this channel :)
* 22:0910 < martinf> ... to have ani accurateam backnot calculation*g
* 22:11 < kiheru> some are easier than others (for dm you can do an educated guess by the helmet). dunno if all achievements are worth the trouble
22:09 < kymara> yes, like me :)
* 22:12 < kymara> maybe we can capture that too
22:09 < martinf> well i meant which of the people here in this channel :)
* 22:12 < kiheru> those that look reasonably doable should be probably done. we should not annoy players who have been around for years
22:10 < martinf> i am not *g
* 22:1113 < kiherumartinf> somein arewhich easiercategory thanshould othersi (for dm you can do an educated guess bywrite the helmet). dunno if all achievements are worth thetracker troubleentry?
* 22:1213 < kymara> maybe we cannone, captureif thatnone toofit
* 22:14 < martinf> ok
22:12 < kiheru> those that look reasonably doable should be probably done. we should not annoy players who have been around for years
* 22:14 < kymara> it could be calculated by website but I guess we shouldn't assume?
22:13 < martinf> in which category should i write the achievements tracker entry?
* 22:15 < madmetzger> a fast idea could be using the halloffame table
22:13 < kymara> none, if none fit
* 22:16 < madmetzger> but that is maybe not the best idea, but it would mayb allow an easier adding to the hall of fame section
22:14 < martinf> ok
* 22:1417 < kymara> itwe couldcan bethink calculatedabout bythat website but I guess wefrom shouldn'tthe assume?tracker
* 22:18 < kymara> okay, I think that's all for now as I don't want to tire everyone on a work night?
22:15 < madmetzger> a fast idea could be using the halloffame table
* 22:18 < kymara> any other issues related to achievement or anything else?
22:16 < madmetzger> but that is maybe not the best idea, but it would mayb allow an easier adding to the hall of fame section
* 22:1721 < kymara> we can think----------- aboutend thatof frommeeting thethen! tracker---------------
22:18 < kymara> okay, I think that's all for now as I don't want to tire everyone on a work night?
22:18 < storyteller> Sorry, but I need to leave now...
22:18 < kymara> any other issues related to achievement or anything else?
22:18 < kymara> bye, story
22:18 < martinf> cu storyteller
22:19 < storyteller> Bye, see you :)
22:19 -!- storyteller [~storytell<(a)>p54883FEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
22:21 < kymara> ----------- end of meeting then! ---------------
</pre>
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