ArianneMeeting200704: Difference between revisions

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&lt;pre&gt;

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; *****************************************************************

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * 1st 2007 Arianne meeting. *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * ======================== *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * April 21, 2007 16:00 GMT *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; *****************************************************************

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * Matters to talk about today *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * * Marauroa 2.0 integration into stendhal *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * * CVS usage, branches *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * * RP creation in small steps *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * * Release before the RP replacement *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * * Version naming after 0.59 *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * * Project managing and planning *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * * Quality process *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * * RP features *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * * Monsters *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * * Maps *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * * Music *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * * Server replication/Multiserver *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; * *

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; *****************************************************************

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; Welcome all to our first 2007 meeting :)

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; I log the whole meeting and it will be available online later.

[18:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; I will also follow it to our arianne-devel mailing list.

[18:01] &lt;steve_i&gt; first post

[18:01] &lt;Oslsachem&gt; hi ppl

[18:02] &lt;hendrik&gt; i'll send him a query

[18:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; TOPIC: Marauroa 2.0 integration into stendhal

[18:02] &lt;steve_i&gt; hi Oslsachem

[18:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik, you wanted to talk about this.

[18:03] &lt;mblanch&gt; Marauroa 2.0 as you know, is our next iteration on the marauroa framework, and it comes to fix several structural limitation that we have found at Stendhal.

[18:04] &lt;mblanch&gt; Marauroa 2.0 is centered exclusively at TCP

[18:04] &lt;kymara&gt; i'd like to have a better idea how much porting to marauroa 2.0 will affect the kind of code i write regularly (like Quests and NPCs)

[18:04] &lt;mblanch&gt; kymara: very little

[18:04] &lt;mblanch&gt; Marauroa 2.0 introduce some new things:

[18:04] &lt;mblanch&gt; * Better RPClass definition

[18:04] &lt;mblanch&gt; * Static attributes for a RPClass

[18:05] &lt;mblanch&gt; * RPEvents

[18:05] &lt;mblanch&gt; * RPLink

[18:05] &lt;hendrik&gt; kymara, it is the internal handling for Entities and Network stuff.

[18:05] &lt;mblanch&gt; RPEvent and RPLink will be used a lot at Stendhal, but internally

[18:06] &lt;mblanch&gt; Briefly, an RPEvent is a set of pairs name,value.

[18:06] &lt;mblanch&gt; Each RPObject has as many RPEvents as it wants, they are send to client and removed after turn ends

[18:07] &lt;mblanch&gt; RPEvents are great for things like showing damage, healing, text, ... in general any thing that is a event

[18:07] &lt;mblanch&gt; RPLink is a slot that has just one object inside.

[18:08] &lt;hendrik&gt; we used a workaround in the past which was to add such attributes like &quot;text&quot; to an entity and remove it at the beginning of the next turn. So we were limited to one value.

[18:08] &lt;mblanch&gt; The point of RPLink is that it simplify things like bank, sheep, buddy, ... things that are not slots but have been modelled like that.

[18:08] &lt;kymara&gt; will poison be handled better?

[18:08] &lt;mblanch&gt; I will write ( soon ) a document that explain all the new things of 2.0 and how to handle it.

[18:09] &lt;mblanch&gt; kymara: yes, it will be handle easier.

[18:09] &lt;lenocas&gt; and drunk with beer and wine??

[18:09] &lt;mblanch&gt; lenocas: we talk about that at the RP features

[18:09] &lt;steve_i&gt; in terms of the amount of data to send to client, does it change , or is it approx the same

[18:09] &lt;mblanch&gt; Also there are some other features:

[18:09] &lt;mort4&gt; mblanch: about the sheep RPLink... it would be very cool if we could have other animals that follow you

[18:10] &lt;mort4&gt; i tried to do this long ago, but gave up

[18:10] &lt;mblanch&gt; - We can deny logout ( for example, no logout in a combat )

[18:10] &lt;mblanch&gt; - We can ban and autoban players that flood the server

[18:10] &lt;hendrik&gt; mblanch, i have not been able to follow all the changes closly. It seems to me that porting stehdal can be done in a couple of days. mblanch, is this right?

[18:10] &lt;mblanch&gt; - We can ban from the game server code

[18:10] &lt;durkham&gt; does anyone already know how much work will it be to port stendhal?

[18:10] &lt;mblanch&gt; steve_i: more or less the same, but it will be a bit smaller. 90% of the actual size

[18:11] &lt;mblanch&gt; mort4: Right, we talk on RP features about that.

[18:11] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: yes

[18:11] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: I could make it work with 2.0 in 3-5 hours, and them port the rest of things slowly to use the new features

[18:11] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: There shouldn't be any *big* bug as it is tested with test cases

[18:12] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: but only when we move stendhal to it we can find.

[18:12] &lt;durkham&gt; so mblanch does the porting ?

[18:12] &lt;mblanch&gt; durkham: yes, and I will write the doc about new features so you all know how to use them

[18:12] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; in Mar2.0 is the TCP traffick compressed or something to make the package size smaller, or sent as open strings?

[18:12] &lt;mblanch&gt; SnakeTails: the perception data is compressed with Zlib I think ( as in Marauroa 1.34 )

[18:13] &lt;kymara&gt; mblanch: will IP address tracking be easier, will there be a new types of ban (like on creating new accounts)?

[18:13] &lt;mblanch&gt; kymara: Yes, IP tracking will be possible on 2.0

[18:13] &lt;mblanch&gt; kymara: other types of ban are possible but are game dependand ( and so coded in stendhal )

[18:14] &lt;steve_i&gt; is account creation handled by marauroa in a generic way or do u code a specific account creation code for the stendhal-server code?

[18:14] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; IP tracking ?

[18:14] &lt;mblanch&gt; steve_i: oh, that also another of the new features :)

[18:14] &lt;timothyb89&gt; Will web based interfaces and such be available (password changing, etc, etc)?

[18:14] &lt;mblanch&gt; steve_i: right now we can only create accounts of one character

[18:15] &lt;mblanch&gt; steve_i: in 2.0 we can really create accounts of several characters.

[18:15] &lt;mblanch&gt; steve_i: account ( and character ) creation is handled on a generic way.

[18:15] &lt;mblanch&gt; steve_i: marauroa creates all the database stuff and call stendhal to fill the RPObject to store to database ( the created player )

[18:15] &lt;mblanch&gt; SnakeTails: Yes, to ban players, right now we can't ban them easily.

[18:16] &lt;mblanch&gt; timothyb89: My idea was to integrate them on stendhal itself

[18:16] &lt;hendrik&gt; timothyb89, there are already web-interaces. but they are deactivated because we do not want players to enter their accountdata anywhere outside the game.

[18:16] &lt;mblanch&gt; timothyb89: but I think it won't be hard to do a webinterface

[18:16] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; but there are problems I see with IP banning

[18:16] &lt;kymara&gt; once stendhal is ported to mar 2.0 will people who run their own server have to build marauroa or may we usa marauroa jar (for 2.0)?

[18:16] &lt;timothyb89&gt; mblanch: Ok :)

[18:16] &lt;mblanch&gt; kymara: use marauroa.jar that will be 2.0 :)

[18:17] &lt;mort4&gt; mblanch: what about player names when there are multiple characters per account?

[18:17] &lt;mblanch&gt; mort4: it will be game specific.

[18:17] &lt;mblanch&gt; mort4: game can choose to deny character creation based on that name

[18:18] &lt;hendrik&gt; we should not talk about player names but account names and character names.

[18:18] &lt;mblanch&gt; mort4: also on 2.0, server can propose a character name to player

[18:18] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; a marauroa.jar file similar to stendhal.jar file would be nice, but for those who want to tweak settings &quot;sources&quot; also

[18:18] &lt;mort4&gt; ok

[18:18] &lt;lenocas&gt; mblanch, it would be fair!!but, when many persosn in a family play stendhal?

[18:18] &lt;mblanch&gt; I have added code to make account name to be randomly generated to siz numbers or so.

[18:18] &lt;lenocas&gt; i mean they have same ip?

[18:18] &lt;mort4&gt; mblanch: people will forget them

[18:19] &lt;mort4&gt; i think by default your first character name should be the same as the account name

[18:19] &lt;mort4&gt; otherwise it's too hard to remember

[18:19] &lt;mblanch&gt; lenocas: each person needs an account, but each account has several characters, and each character is an ingame player.

[18:19] &lt;lenocas&gt; :S

[18:19] &lt;mblanch&gt; mort4: It is not hardcoded, server game can decide on that.

[18:19] &lt;lenocas&gt; i will ask explanations later...

[18:20] &lt;mblanch&gt; mort4: when we add a new RP, many people will want to have several character.

[18:20] &lt;mblanch&gt; Should character names be unique? they are unique per account right now.

[18:21] &lt;lenocas&gt; yes, mblanch :)

[18:21] &lt;mblanch&gt; Should we allow several characters on the same account to be played simultaneously?

[18:21] &lt;hendrik&gt; i think they must be unique in the whole game world.

[18:21] &lt;steve_i&gt; mblanch: defiantely unique

[18:21] &lt;mort4&gt; mblanch: what about using e-mail addresses as account names?

[18:21] &lt;mort4&gt; you need an e-mail account anyway

[18:21] &lt;mort4&gt; and people don't forget these

[18:21] &lt;steve_i&gt; mblanch: but they can maybe be mulitple names, eg a first name and a second name

[18:22] &lt;mblanch&gt; mort4: I like it :)

[18:22] &lt;steve_i&gt; mblanch: yeah and email address could also be verified

[18:22] &lt;mblanch&gt; What do you think about account activation by email?

[18:22] &lt;steve_i&gt; i made a feature request today :)

[18:22] &lt;lenocas&gt; yes, mblanch:)

[18:22] &lt;mort4&gt; and it is a bit harder to create lots of accounts

[18:22] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; email address verificatio I would wholly support ;o)

[18:22] &lt;durkham&gt; i like souble opt in but we would loose the create account and go.... thing

[18:23] &lt;hendrik&gt; we will lose potential player if they have to enter their email-address.

[18:23] &lt;durkham&gt; souble = double

[18:23] &lt;Seather_&gt; will there be a safe way to send a kick message? will we still be able to do an unclean disconnection which makes it look like the server is down?

[18:23] &lt;mblanch&gt; Seather_: it is done, player will get a MessageS2CBanned message :)

[18:23] &lt;kymara&gt; exactly durkham - java webstart is there for play and go (amongst other things)

[18:23] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: I agree with you

[18:23] &lt;steve_i&gt; yes but also get rid of nuisance players , its a trade off

[18:23] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; I put something about that in the forum today

[18:24] &lt;kymara&gt; but if we can deal with nuisance players better ...

[18:24] &lt;mblanch&gt; Many people don't like to enter its email address on anything.

[18:24] &lt;hendrik&gt; it would be good if we could require email-address validation for some ip-addresses.

[18:24] &lt;kymara&gt; they're less of a nuisance, then

[18:24] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; ...forum today .... about kick players, and text to screen

[18:24] &lt;kymara&gt; yes hendrik - another kind of ban, in a way

[18:24] &lt;lenocas&gt; yes, hendrik :)

[18:25] &lt;lenocas&gt; :) here he comes !!

[18:25] &lt;mblanch&gt; How would that be? some players validate and another no?

[18:25] &lt;steve_i&gt; if its easy to do , then y not

[18:25] &lt;lenocas&gt; perhaps, if there are reasons to make a difference, i guess...

[18:25] &lt;ChadF&gt; hendrik: there could be 2 classes of players.. those that have verified with email, and those that don't at the price of some functionality/limits that are easily abused.

[18:26] &lt;hendrik&gt; &quot;We are sorry, but there have been many absive actions from people using the same Internet Server Provide than you do. So we require you to verify your email address in order to create an account.&quot;

[18:26] &lt;mblanch&gt; I like Chadf idea

[18:26] &lt;mort4&gt; ChadF: but then we need to make it possible to enter your e-mail address later on

[18:26] &lt;lenocas&gt; hendrik; good!!!! :)

[18:26] &lt;hendrik&gt; mort4, yes and change it.

[18:26] &lt;kymara&gt; we could make a forum for this

[18:27] &lt;mblanch&gt; For example,... no support and not global talk ( i talk about this later ) until account has been validated.

[18:27] &lt;Seather_&gt; and a modified client won't be able to evade the kick? (i ask because i know of a couple situations in other games where a client side cheat code could evade getting kicked by not agnolging that it recived the message)

[18:27] &lt;mblanch&gt; mort4: ok, I write email modication request.

[18:27] &lt;ChadF&gt; mort4: you mean to login? that would just be associated with the account/pass they use to login, like now. it would just be in a validated status.

[18:27] &lt;mblanch&gt; Seather_: no

[18:27] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; modifying your Email addy later on could be a &quot;user-admin&quot; function either in game with a town official, or online

[18:27] &lt;mblanch&gt; Seather_: server send the kick and close the connection

[18:27] &lt;mblanch&gt; Seather_: everything is server managed here :)

[18:28] &lt;hendrik&gt; Seather_, that message is just for notification the player that this is not some random technical problem.

[18:28] &lt;steve_i&gt; i like the idea of having a few restirctions until you verify

[18:28] &lt;steve_i&gt; eg talk out loud

[18:29] &lt;ChadF&gt; Snaketails-2: you don't want players to have to give their email out in the game where others could see it,since it should remain private from other players

[18:29] &lt;kymara&gt; it starts to sound like a shareware software where you have restrictions till you register, then, steve_i

[18:29] &lt;lenocas&gt; why in the game. give e-mail'

[18:29] &lt;lenocas&gt; ?

[18:29] &lt;mblanch&gt; kymara: no, it is not... it won't be so disturbing

[18:29] &lt;kymara&gt; lenocas: you remember problems with many players making accounts with rude name?

[18:30] &lt;ChadF&gt; lenocas: Snaketails-2 was talking about how to change/update it

[18:30] &lt;mblanch&gt; kymara: you will be asked to confirm your email account, just that.

[18:30] &lt;kymara&gt; lenocas: if, then, we were able to say 'you can't make a new account without a proper email address' then maybe we woul dhave less problem

[18:30] &lt;steve_i&gt; thing is as the game gets more popular more and more people will abuse the 'play for 2 minutes for a couple of kicks then go'

[18:30] &lt;steve_i&gt; i mean abusive kicks

[18:30] &lt;mblanch&gt; I talk about newbiew on the RP section :)

[18:30] &lt;mblanch&gt; Anything more about Marauroa 2.0?

[18:31] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; I'm not saying that the info is given out in game, its like when you go to vote (or sit o the toilet), you go in a 1 person room, and no one can enter and you do your &quot;business&quot; in private

[18:31] &lt;durkham&gt; perhaps we should discuss this seperately ? and go on with schedule ?

[18:31] &lt;ChadF&gt; kymara: a &quot;limited&quot; account would also let players play imediately, before they validate their account.. which then gets them the full gameplay

[18:31] &lt;hendrik&gt; all the recent idiots have been playing for several days, one even for more than a year.

[18:31] &lt;steve_i&gt; yes

[18:31] &lt;lenocas&gt; mblanch. can we keep our nicks with reset?? please!!!

[18:31] &lt;timothyb89_lapto&gt; I think some restrictions like that would be good :) Are *are* trying to keep agod community, so making sure people actually want to play and are not just taking up resources are a good thing ;-)

[18:31] &lt;mblanch&gt; lenocas: we talk about that at the end.

[18:31] &lt;mblanch&gt; TOPIC: CVS usage, branches

[18:32] &lt;mblanch&gt; Lately we ( I at least ) have had some headaches with CVS

[18:32] &lt;mblanch&gt; We should decide how to use it

[18:32] &lt;mblanch&gt; and how to add experimental stuff

[18:32] &lt;mblanch&gt; and how to freeze it for releases

[18:32] &lt;durkham&gt; i propose the following:

[18:33] &lt;durkham&gt; announce realease

[18:33] &lt;durkham&gt; let then go on 2 days of normal coding

[18:33] &lt;timothyb89_lapto&gt; Maybe a seperate module? stendhal-unstable and stendhal-stable?

[18:33] &lt;durkham&gt; code freeze then

[18:33] &lt;durkham&gt; bugfixing for anotheer 2-3 days

[18:34] &lt;durkham&gt; then branch release version

[18:34] &lt;mblanch&gt; timothyb89: You mean branches.

[18:34] &lt;durkham&gt; so the there should not be any need for backproting in the matter it was the last time

[18:34] &lt;timothyb89_lapto&gt; yes hehe P

[18:34] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: what do you say

[18:35] &lt;mblanch&gt; Ok, so:

[18:35] &lt;mblanch&gt; Announce release (4-5 days earlier)

[18:35] &lt;mblanch&gt; No more features ( commited things are rolled back )

[18:35] &lt;mblanch&gt; Test, review and code freeze

[18:35] &lt;mblanch&gt; Branch and release from branch.

[18:35] &lt;steve_i&gt; do u guys tag the source at each version so its possible to get to checkout a known version?

[18:35] &lt;mblanch&gt; steve_i: yes

[18:35] &lt;durkham&gt; yes

[18:36] &lt;hendrik&gt; no

[18:36] &lt;durkham&gt; no?

[18:36] &lt;steve_i&gt; can u just tag at 'code freeze' and use that but still allow further commits

[18:36] &lt;hendrik&gt; it is impossible to checkout the version we released.

[18:36] &lt;ChadF&gt; Also, per-file cvs branches should only be done when needed. So if a file is 1.5 for the release and still 1.5 in head, 1.6 should be used for both the patch and head if the fix applies to both. No creating side branches that have to be mirrored in the head line.

[18:37] &lt;danter&gt; i think timothyb89's idea about stable and unstable is a good idea... but we should probably create them as svn aswell, if we are starting to change cvs stuff anyway

[18:37] &lt;danter&gt; atleast I think it's really good if we have some form of unstable version

[18:37] &lt;ChadF&gt; Of cource if release is 1.5 and head is 1.6, a real patch would go in 1.5.1 (and be merged if needed into the head)

[18:37] &lt;ChadF&gt; c=s

[18:37] &lt;lenocas&gt; :P

[18:38] &lt;kymara&gt; i'm no expert but it seems like we've had a lot of experimental/unfinished stuff in cvs recently

[18:38] &lt;danter&gt; cause alot of strange bugs (deathmatch arena) has came into game alot of times

[18:38] &lt;mblanch&gt; danter: we keep on CVS because all the history is there.

[18:38] &lt;ChadF&gt; hendrik: would make it easier to move files ;)

[18:38] &lt;kymara&gt; why can't people keep an unstable branch on their own machine?

[18:38] &lt;ChadF&gt; mblanch: the history can be xfered (cvs2svn)

[18:38] &lt;kymara&gt; and not do a commit with a comment like 'this is broken still' on a very important file?

[18:38] &lt;Seather_&gt; have a test server setup to allow for more people to test before release?

[18:38] &lt;kymara&gt; (without meaning to sound critical)

[18:39] &lt;durkham&gt; agree with kymara experimental stuff should be on local maschine

[18:39] &lt;danter&gt; well, the history will still be able in cvs directory, just checkout that version, then mod to cvs

[18:39] &lt;timothyb89_lapto&gt; Or: svn can be unstable, cvs can be official and bugfixes

[18:39] &lt;hendrik&gt; Seather_, we have had a test server for all the last releases. But we need an easier way to distribute Branch-clients.

[18:39] &lt;danter&gt; the history will just be crucial the first month or so, after that it's not really necesary

[18:39] &lt;durkham&gt; i like the idea of having a test maschine that is created from cvs every night and fresh and easy every morning

[18:40] &lt;mblanch&gt; I plan to create a complete copy of our release structure

[18:40] &lt;kymara&gt; another comment that might sound critical and i do apologise in advance

[18:40] &lt;mblanch&gt; so we can test on the backstage before the release

[18:41] &lt;durkham&gt; timothy how to explain that idea to my ide?

[18:41] &lt;mblanch&gt; kymara: critical comments are good :)

[18:41] &lt;kymara&gt; but we did do pretty much that cvs 'freeze' and 'only bugfix' this time round

[18:41] &lt;kymara&gt; but it wasn't particularly respected

[18:41] &lt;kymara&gt; (hides)

[18:41] &lt;durkham&gt; true

[18:41] &lt;kymara&gt; how do we make sure what we plan now, is kept to?

[18:41] &lt;kymara&gt; we really should have to have moderated commits. we should all be capable of obeying rules

[18:42] &lt;kymara&gt; *shouldnt have to have

[18:42] &lt;mblanch&gt; I can take care of enforcing it :)

[18:42] &lt;steve_i&gt; thats why we need a place for people to keep commiting, rather than no commits at all

[18:42] &lt;kymara&gt; steve_i: why can't people be patient for a few days?

[18:42] &lt;steve_i&gt; a serpate place i mean

[18:42] &lt;timothyb89_lapto&gt; durkham: hehe... IDEs don't like to versions too much :P hehe... frgot abot that :P

[18:42] &lt;kymara&gt; do it on their own machines ?

[18:42] &lt;hendrik&gt; As usual there was a small number of bugs per developer.

[18:42] &lt;hendrik&gt; but we are a much larger team now.

[18:42] &lt;hendrik&gt; so more bugs in sum.

[18:42] &lt;durkham&gt; steve_i i think this is all about self-discipline, just keep ypurself from hitting commit

[18:43] &lt;steve_i&gt; fair enough, there is no time pressure i suppose, no one is getting paid :)

[18:43] &lt;hendrik&gt; steve_i, this was the first time that we had the branch before the release.

[18:43] &lt;kymara&gt; steve_i: and everyone had agreed to freeze commits except for bug fixes

[18:43] &lt;kymara&gt; they had some days notice of the freeze starting

[18:44] &lt;hendrik&gt; most of the bugs had been introduced beforehand.

[18:44] &lt;danter&gt; timothyb89: even if you do it on your own machine, bugs will always appear, thus we need an easy way to distribute &quot;test clients&quot; that seweral can use to test it, before a release is made

[18:44] &lt;mblanch&gt; Well, the whole point on 0.59 is that there has been a lot of refactoring

[18:44] &lt;mblanch&gt; and that have caused bugs ( not bad at all )

[18:44] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; whats the timing of updates to CVS -&gt; running on test server then -&gt; World server ?

[18:45] &lt;danter&gt; kymara I mean... sorry timothyb89

[18:45] &lt;mblanch&gt; once bugs are fixed we will have a better source code

[18:45] &lt;kymara&gt; danter: you're right, especially with something you had no chance to test like how the updater handles your changes

[18:46] &lt;hendrik&gt; we should look closer at the things other developers do.

[18:46] &lt;kymara&gt; perhaps that woudl be easier if we had a protocol for commit messages

[18:46] &lt;durkham&gt; it is hard to follow others developers changes but this seems to be the topic planning and quality

[18:46] &lt;hendrik&gt; this is getting more difficult in a larger team

[18:47] &lt;hendrik&gt; and we know that all the other developers know what they are doing.

[18:47] &lt;kymara&gt; definitely, my inbox is always packed with emails about commits. and yes i would have no reason to assume i need to check someone else's changes

[18:47] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; how much documentation is submitted with each code update?

[18:47] &lt;mort4&gt; ChadF: a public beta would be nice

[18:47] &lt;mort4&gt; currently only the developers test

[18:47] &lt;mblanch&gt; ChadF: yes, but bugs often only shows when running server on public

[18:48] * sshk5 (n=sshk5@81.202.127.83.dyn.user.ono.com) Quit (&quot;Saliendo&quot;)

[18:48] &lt;kymara&gt; mort4: i was also thinking we should invite a handful of players to test

[18:48] &lt;ChadF&gt; perhaps publicize a &quot;test&quot; server to general players.. since developers can only go so much.

[18:48] &lt;kymara&gt; or just a few we know

[18:48] &lt;mort4&gt; mblanch: we could run the beta on the public server

[18:48] &lt;mort4&gt; with the actual database

[18:48] &lt;kymara&gt; example: we'd never have found that username case specific bug

[18:48] &lt;mort4&gt; then reset the DB to the old state after beta testing

[18:48] &lt;ChadF&gt; and give incentives like &quot;extra access/items&quot; on those tests server in exchange for testing thing

[18:48] &lt;kymara&gt; because we're all developers, trained to use correct case

[18:48] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; there used to be a pre-release server in the 1st 2-4 months of this full time playable version

[18:49] &lt;hendrik&gt; using a database dump seems like a good idea, but we should do this on another server.

[18:49] &lt;kymara&gt; i think just running a test server like we did this time (mblanch's) but inviting a few players on would be enough

[18:49] &lt;steve_i&gt; def need some dedicated Beta Testers

[18:49] &lt;hendrik&gt; like stendhal-test.ath.cx or mblanch's one.

[18:49] &lt;steve_i&gt; to try just about everything to break the game

[18:49] &lt;kymara&gt; hendrik: i thought about a PlayerMaker script

[18:49] &lt;kymara&gt; like your AdminMaker one

[18:49] &lt;durkham&gt; agree kymara and steve_i

[18:50] &lt;kymara&gt; to make a player when you speak to them, possibly with a parameter for what level they want to be

[18:50] &lt;hendrik&gt; yes

[18:50] &lt;kymara&gt; or random level assignation

[18:51] &lt;kymara&gt; using database dump might be ok too. but i don't know, i'm not sure players would be ok with it. they'd feel like they deserved any items they got, gven to them in teh real server

[18:51] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; agree with timothy about server

[18:51] &lt;kymara&gt; we already get requests to match their KM atk/def/xp levels

[18:51] &lt;mblanch&gt; :)

[18:51] &lt;mblanch&gt; ok, move to next topic?

[18:51] &lt;ChadF&gt; kymara: but to really give it a good test, you need the divisity of random ppl playing. Choosing a handful of ppl may skew that (even unintentially)

[18:51] &lt;mblanch&gt; I can host the test server

[18:52] &lt;mblanch&gt; TOPIC: RP creation in small steps

[18:52] &lt;mblanch&gt; This is about the creation of the new RP system

[18:52] &lt;ChadF&gt; If we did have a public beta server, we probably should have a seperate bugs submision list (to diff from the released ones)

[18:52] &lt;danter&gt; were we really done with this topic...?

[18:53] &lt;mblanch&gt; danter: anything else?

[18:53] &lt;danter&gt; i dunno... it sort of feels like any decisions never was made

[18:54] &lt;ChadF&gt; danter: maybe just gveing ideas at this point is enough

[18:54] &lt;ChadF&gt; not need to rush an unideal sollution

[18:54] &lt;danter&gt; ok...

[18:54] &lt;mblanch&gt; Yes, knowing that something need to be done and ppl have pointed

[18:54] &lt;mblanch&gt; - test server

[18:54] &lt;ChadF&gt; rr= not=no

[18:54] &lt;danter&gt; well next topic then

[18:54] &lt;mblanch&gt; - copy of database dump

[18:55] &lt;kymara&gt; we can write up on the wiki, there's already a release procedure page there

[18:55] &lt;mblanch&gt; - more players, not just developers.

[18:55] &lt;mblanch&gt; ...

[18:55] &lt;kymara&gt; and the cvs 'rules' :P

[18:55] &lt;mblanch&gt; ok?

[18:55] &lt;mblanch&gt; And to make it clear, creating the RP on time is not going to be possible.

[18:56] &lt;steve_i&gt; right on next topic - will players classes be introduced? eg mage , fighter etc? and if so will this need a DB reset?

[18:56] &lt;mblanch&gt; So RP need to be done in steps

[18:56] &lt;mblanch&gt; steve_i: please wait for RP features, ok?

[18:56] &lt;mblanch&gt; steve_i: this is just about the development of the RP

[18:56] &lt;steve_i&gt; ok sorry

[18:56] &lt;mblanch&gt; steve_i: np :)

[18:56] &lt;hendrik&gt; we should try to have a release within 4 weeks. So we need to do the whole RP thing in small steps.

[18:57] &lt;hendrik&gt; And we may want to get parts of it live so that they are tested.

[18:57] &lt;ChadF&gt; hendrik: 59.x or 60? =)

[18:57] &lt;steve_i&gt; well i suppose it kinda relates... ie if you wanna do it little steps, at what point if any, will you have to reset DB... cause that is a big step

[18:57] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; small steps for RP would be best, tep &amp; test, if not you could screw the world.

[18:58] &lt;danter&gt; yes, defently small and well tested cases with RP

[18:58] &lt;mblanch&gt; The problem of doing RP in steps is that we will have again the same problems that on actual stendhal: unbalanced things

[18:58] &lt;danter&gt; othervise we would get back to this situation in no time

[18:58] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: Database reset is as you guess not soon :)

[18:58] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; I believe the current 59.x is too cloe to release a new RP on 60.0 maybe a player DB reset at 1.0 and the REP is installed up to that point

[18:59] &lt;hendrik&gt; please ignore the version numbers for now.

[18:59] &lt;Seather2&gt; arianne[eye]_ : help

[18:59] &lt;mblanch&gt; SnakeTails: I hoped that 0.60 would have a new RP but that's plainly impossible.

[19:00] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; agreed. but its something that should be looked at, and thats setting of &quot;milestones&quot;

[19:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; SnakeTails: ok

[19:00] &lt;mblanch&gt; ChadF: We need to sort how to add ideas so they don't collide

[19:01] &lt;steve_i&gt; sorry to butt in but have to go now :( so much left unsaid... another meeting sometime soon?

[19:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; steve_i: dunno

[19:02] &lt;durkham&gt; mblanch that would be topic planning then

[19:02] &lt;steve_i&gt; its ok i will add to wiki discussions etc

[19:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; durkham:

[19:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; Dunno

[19:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; We need to think how to do RP before coding so we all work on the same direction

[19:03] &lt;mblanch&gt; I feel that lately the code has lost its idea of working on a single direction

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; +-------+----------+

[19:03] &lt;durkham&gt; yes and i see parts of it already coded

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; | level | count(*) |

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; +-------+----------+

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; | 0 | 7110 |

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; | 1 | 337 |

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; | 2 | 426 |

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; | 3 | 321 |

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; | 4 | 413 |

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; | 5 | 294 |

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; | 6 | 157 |

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; | 7 | 119 |

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; | 8 | 102 |

[19:03] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; setup a basis for RP, similar to that hand drawn graphic of the world MB did a long time ago ;o)

[19:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; | 9 | 179 |

[19:03] &lt;ChadF&gt; mblanch: I wanted to create itemized skills, instead of global atk/def values. Then skills can be specialized, and easier to gain in certain areas (reducing the need for &quot;camping&quot;) and a more realistic gameplay.

[19:04] &lt;kymara&gt; possible, since it's going to get to 200+ :P

[19:05] &lt;durkham&gt; agrees mblanch of code direction

[19:06] &lt;mblanch&gt; We should all agree and create a Wiki of the milestones of stendhal

[19:06] &lt;mblanch&gt; and work all on that features

[19:06] &lt;mblanch&gt; new features can be added at the end of the planned milestones.

[19:07] &lt;mblanch&gt; ok?

[19:07] &lt;hendrik&gt; i am not sure whether this is limited to features.

[19:07] &lt;durkham&gt; i agree on any means of planning 'tool'

[19:08] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: what do you mean?

[19:08] &lt;kymara&gt; mblanch: are you suggesting you decide what we want and how to do it, first? then start splitting up tasks, perhap susign a program?

[19:08] &lt;kymara&gt; *using

[19:08] &lt;mblanch&gt; kymara: more or less

[19:08] &lt;hendrik&gt; there are different ideas how the code should be structures and sometimes one does a refactoring which undoes a refactoring done by someone else before.

[19:08] &lt;mblanch&gt; kymara: i want to mean what hendrik has just wrote :)

[19:08] &lt;ChadF&gt; mblanch: also, if the balance isn't perfect at first, we could always tweak it over time (like mini-releases just for those values), as long as it's done slowely so players don't notice dramatic shifts.

[19:09] &lt;mblanch&gt; ChadF: well, there is no other option.

[19:10] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; whats wrong with players noticing dramatic shifts?

[19:10] &lt;mblanch&gt; SnakeTails: complains :)

[19:10] &lt;ChadF&gt; Snaketails-2: some could get easily killed without without warning, if their def or something changes too fast

[19:10] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; ok, what would te sift be like on DB reset ?

[19:11] &lt;mblanch&gt; Anyway... we can't spent much on planning, it is useless

[19:11] &lt;hendrik&gt; Snaketails-2, for example there was a problem with deathmatch for some mounth. This is fixed now and players are really surprised and get angry if they die because it is for normal difficulty again.

[19:11] &lt;mblanch&gt; But we need to reach an agreement on how to work the next release.

[19:11] &lt;mort4&gt; i'd like to have different kinds of ATK

[19:11] &lt;mblanch&gt; mort4: RP Features please :)

[19:11] &lt;mort4&gt; like, bow+arrows skills, spear skills etc

[19:12] &lt;mort4&gt; ok

[19:12] &lt;mort4&gt; just saying it now because i'll be away later

[19:12] &lt;mblanch&gt; Ok, so is ok that we work on a Wiki page to work all on the same direction?

[19:12] &lt;mblanch&gt; Move to next topic?

[19:12] &lt;durkham&gt; if we have a rp-wiki and a code wiki yes

[19:12] &lt;mblanch&gt; durkham: ok

[19:13] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; wiki page to set a direction I feel is a good step to furthering the game ;o)

[19:13] &lt;danter&gt; I had a rather nice idea about gaining levels and such earlier today... right now we describe atk/def of monsters in an xml file, there we also describe how much xp you gain from monsters. We could change the level to describe how much experience you gain from monsters, that level is used also to define how much atk and def experience (or what other attributes we will use) it will work in the same way as normal experience works now... after

[19:14] &lt;mblanch&gt; TOPIC: Releases before the RP replacement

[19:14] &lt;mblanch&gt; (Before we start to talk about RP features :P )

[19:15] &lt;ChadF&gt; We need a better way to find where to start putting these things on the wiki, if we're expected to use it for ideas. Right now I have to follow many links just to get close to what I want (and I don't know what pages I don't notice).

[19:15] &lt;danter&gt; the training woldnt be so slow (when your fighting the monsters for your lvl) but would go extremely slow and hardly notice, if your fighting monsters that can't harm you

[19:15] &lt;mblanch&gt; Well, as a result of the previous point ( RP complexity ) we have to release new things between 0.59 and working new RP system

[19:16] &lt;hendrik&gt; http://arianne.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php?title=StendhalRefactoring

[19:16] &lt;kymara&gt; the new wiki side bar helps with this a lot ChadF

[19:16] &lt;mblanch&gt; And also related with this topic it is &quot;Version naming after 0.59&quot;

[19:17] &lt;mblanch&gt; We need to do a 0.60 release that is not going to have a new RP

[19:17] &lt;mblanch&gt; We need also to decide how to name versions

[19:17] &lt;timothyb89&gt; And 0.60 will have been ported to 2.0 if I've been following things correctly?

[19:17] &lt;timothyb89&gt; *marauroa 2.0

[19:17] &lt;mblanch&gt; yes

[19:17] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; the thing is with the 0.60 release the new RP system may not be implemented, but it is a whole lot further forward than it was 3 at 0.58

[19:18] &lt;mblanch&gt; I can port database from 1.34 to 2.0

[19:18] &lt;timothyb89&gt; :)

[19:18] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; 3 at 0.58?

[19:18] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; grrrrr 3:20am ;o( sorry

[19:19] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: so? what do you think the naming should be like?

[19:19] &lt;ChadF&gt; mblanch: so hold off the db reset till 61 or something?

[19:19] &lt;mblanch&gt; ChadF: as long as possible until new RP is mature enough

[19:20] &lt;danter&gt; ChadF: frankly I don't think a DB reset will be any soon at all right no

[19:20] &lt;danter&gt; w

[19:20] &lt;durkham&gt; i propose 0.60 for stendhal portet to marauroa 2.0

[19:20] &lt;hendrik&gt; i think we should go for 0.60 as we need more than one release before it is ready.

[19:20] &lt;danter&gt; as hendrik and mblanch said earlier

[19:20] &lt;durkham&gt; if new RP is implmented let it be 0.70

[19:20] &lt;durkham&gt; so the big changes are in the numbers

[19:20] &lt;mblanch&gt; What about 1.00?

[19:21] &lt;ChadF&gt; durkham: that seems like far off, if we want to start the new rp soon (in small steps)

[19:21] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; how about in 0.60.01 -&gt; 0.60.99 RP is built up over time in minor steps, don't work on other &quot;side&quot; projects, and concentrate on this?

[19:21] &lt;kymara&gt; mblanch: i think it would be useful to see how the new RP system works from a zeroed database before releasing as not-beta

[19:21] &lt;mblanch&gt; SnakeTails: problem of 0.60.01--&gt; is that we miss the feeling of progress ( hey! see! still 0.60, as Oslsachem told about wine project :P )

[19:22] &lt;mblanch&gt; kymara: ok

[19:22] &lt;durkham&gt; chadf: i have no problem with 0.60 release and have the next one named 0.70 is the change is big enough to rectify

[19:22] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; I'm happy to have my stats set to zero to test the new system, or any system

[19:22] &lt;ChadF&gt; how about the M$ way of using years.. &quot;stendhal 2007: spring thaw&quot; ;)

[19:22] &lt;kymara&gt; SnakeTails: not all of us can contribute to writing the new RP :/

[19:22] &lt;mblanch&gt; So we keep 0.60, 0.61, 0.62, ... and 0.60.1 to bug fixes?

[19:22] &lt;kymara&gt; if we were told to only do those release, i and a few others couldn't contribute for ages. perhaps no bad thing :P

[19:23] &lt;kymara&gt; mblanch: what you say about numbering sounds sensible to me

[19:23] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; but those who can will work on the RP system, there will always be a job for cartographers (world makers and fillers)

[19:23] &lt;ChadF&gt; mblanch: there's also the linux kernal style.. odd/even minir versions for stable/devel

[19:23] &lt;durkham&gt; mblanch agreed

[19:23] &lt;ChadF&gt; rr.. kernel

[19:23] &lt;hendrik&gt; Snaketails-2, keep in mind that this is hobby, not payed work. So it is impossible to force anyone to do this.

[19:24] &lt;mblanch&gt; ChadF: are we would to release devel things?

[19:24] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; rr.. kernel ? as in 2.&lt;even&gt; is public release 2.&lt;odd&gt; is the next test version ?

[19:24] &lt;hendrik&gt; ChadF, this may be useful if we have more than 500 active developers.

[19:24] &lt;lenocas&gt; !!!!

[19:24] &lt;durkham&gt; and have a big number jump for the RP stuff meant to be as wished

[19:24] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: so keep the actual way of numbering?

[19:24] &lt;hendrik&gt; mblanch, yes

[19:24] &lt;mblanch&gt; ok

[19:24] &lt;ChadF&gt; in that case a beta server could also run with the devel version (rewinding conversation a bit)

[19:25] &lt;durkham&gt; what i thought of :)

[19:25] &lt;mblanch&gt; Yes, but it is not released :)

[19:25] &lt;hendrik&gt; I think we should do some PR for 0.60. Like comparing it to 0.50.

[19:25] &lt;mblanch&gt; PR?

[19:25] &lt;hendrik&gt; instead of defining it based on completly new things.

[19:25] &lt;ChadF&gt; pub-rel

[19:26] &lt;durkham&gt; rp role play

[19:26] &lt;hendrik&gt; public relations -&gt; advertisement.

[19:26] &lt;mblanch&gt; ok

[19:26] &lt;ChadF&gt; get it into slashdot ;)

[19:26] &lt;mblanch&gt; Careful :)

[19:26] &lt;hendrik&gt; no, not that.

[19:26] &lt;ChadF&gt; CNN? =)

[19:26] &lt;mblanch&gt; Or Atlan server will burn :D

[19:26] &lt;durkham&gt; BBC world

[19:27] &lt;danter&gt; :P

[19:27] &lt;kymara&gt; what about more activity on happy penguin etc

[19:27] &lt;hendrik&gt; what i wanted to say is this: We should define 0.60 from a customers point of view not from a developers ones.

[19:27] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; how about if the releases between 60 and 70 are just on the test server and the major releases to public get the 60, 70, 80 ?

[19:27] &lt;kymara&gt; how many people here haven't rated it thet? we could all go do that

[19:27] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: agree

[19:27] &lt;kymara&gt; hendrik: i would be happy to help with this

[19:27] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: kymara is doing a great job at the new items

[19:27] &lt;hendrik&gt; and there are lots of great things in 0.60 that have not been there in 0.50.

[19:27] &lt;hendrik&gt; mblanch, yes i agree with that.

[19:28] &lt;kymara&gt; but not /. or anything so big

[19:28] &lt;mblanch&gt; done with topic now?

[19:28] &lt;kymara&gt; word of mouth is a big thing. a lot of us have blogs, i guess. we could post to there

[19:29] &lt;hendrik&gt; (not related to kymara last sentence)

[19:29] &lt;kymara&gt; true, hendrik

[19:29] &lt;kymara&gt; kiheru could probably recruit more people to help him with this

[19:30] &lt;kymara&gt; it is a huge task for him alone

[19:30] &lt;mblanch&gt; steve site will help us recruit ocasional developers

[19:30] &lt;mblanch&gt; and graphics, map makers and so

[19:30] &lt;mblanch&gt; I plan to allow people submit work and pay them in game money for their work

[19:30] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; the mapping I found the most interesting part

[19:31] &lt;mblanch&gt; TOPIC: Project managing and planning and Quality review

[19:31] &lt;lenocas&gt; game money??? :O

[19:31] &lt;mblanch&gt; This the BIGGEST problem we have right now

[19:31] &lt;lenocas&gt; lol

[19:31] &lt;mblanch&gt; There is little management ( that's ok )

[19:32] &lt;durkham&gt; i porpose have some more sophisticated tool for planning

[19:32] &lt;mblanch&gt; There is 0 planning ( that's bad, I always find myself surprised when I reading CVS commits )

[19:32] &lt;lenocas&gt; eheh

[19:32] &lt;mblanch&gt; and we need to work on quality ( test server we have previously talked will help. )

[19:33] &lt;kymara&gt; and people even 'plan' on projects in tandem. so that they are disappointed when they find someone already has ideas which would preclude theirs

[19:33] &lt;mblanch&gt; and about planning the wiki we mentioned before should help, but we should all ( I too ) be more communicative about what we are doing and what our next steps are going to be.

[19:33] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; I can relate to the current topic, and so can my boss when he hassles me at work ;o(

[19:34] &lt;kymara&gt; mblanch: we have that wiki for maps

[19:34] &lt;durkham&gt; mblanch i showed you the xplanner.org programm

[19:34] &lt;mblanch&gt; durkham: problem of planning tools is that can't be imposed

[19:34] &lt;kymara&gt; but only about half the devels who make maps, use it

[19:34] &lt;mblanch&gt; kymara: yes, I will improve it a bit, but it is a good thing

[19:34] &lt;kymara&gt; likewise we have a quests refactoring page with many details

[19:34] &lt;kymara&gt; which has also been ignored, causing problems

[19:34] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: yes

[19:35] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; in the early days, it was &quot;see danter for mapping&quot; see this person for this.... there was a central organiser and controller.... what happened?

[19:35] &lt;mblanch&gt; hendrik: we are talking about long-term development

[19:35] &lt;mblanch&gt; SnakeTails: globalization :P

[19:35] &lt;kymara&gt; sure, hendrik, but perhaps you also keep your eyes on any wiki refactoring pages which might affect your ideas

[19:35] &lt;danter&gt; heh... I got rather innactive... and well others took over...

[19:35] &lt;durkham&gt; mblanch problem on volunteer programmers is they cannot be imposed at all

[19:35] &lt;mblanch&gt; SnakeTails: I think RL work interfere.

[19:35] &lt;mblanch&gt; durkham: that's teh point :(

[19:35] &lt;durkham&gt; at the moment i have to take care at at leaast 3 paces

[19:36] &lt;durkham&gt; 3 places

[19:36] &lt;hendrik&gt; Snaketails-2, we still have this: Ask ChadF for gui and zones, ask durkham for sound and OOP, ...

[19:36] &lt;durkham&gt; that are definately too many

[19:36] &lt;mblanch&gt; durkham: which places?

[19:36] &lt;durkham&gt; wiki

[19:36] &lt;hendrik&gt; ask kiheru for sprites, ask kymara for quests...

[19:36] &lt;durkham&gt; bug trackers bug and features

[19:36] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; but the general idea of controlling and direxcton was there, ok RL gets in the way of fun stuff/hobbies but there should be something like this if its a person, or if its a web page.

[19:36] &lt;durkham&gt; there is somewhere a readme which i also should contribute to

[19:36] &lt;ChadF&gt; maybe we could create a wiki page for each developer that they can organize however), then in the common area, links are created to those pages/sections of developers that have ideas/comments on them (when relavent).

[19:37] &lt;durkham&gt; the the todo s in code

[19:37] &lt;durkham&gt; irc

[19:37] &lt;durkham&gt; did i miss one?

[19:37] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; Ahhh ok ;o)

[19:37] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; thanks hendrik ;o)

[19:37] &lt;mblanch&gt; So how to improve this?

[19:37] &lt;mblanch&gt; durkham: irc logs :P

[19:37] &lt;kymara&gt; even though it#s true, people may 'ask me' about quests - that doesn't mean all do say

[19:38] &lt;durkham&gt; if we had a central point just for planning

[19:38] &lt;danter&gt; hmm, I think alot of developers needs to be added to this page

[19:38] &lt;danter&gt; http://arianne.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

[19:38] &lt;durkham&gt; and it is not like waterfall

[19:38] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; how about a forum area for the seperate areas that get worked on so discussions can take place, and not meet at say 1600 which for some people cannot do this often...

[19:38] &lt;durkham&gt; just like have the tasks, a bit like the bug-tracker in sf but you must be able to devide it

[19:39] &lt;mblanch&gt; durkham: the problem of any app that really deserver our time is that it is moderately complex and newbies reject to use ( and not so newbies :| )

[19:39] &lt;durkham&gt; i needed about half an hour to setup and post the first task to xplanner

[19:39] &lt;durkham&gt; and most of it was setup

[19:39] &lt;hendrik&gt; Snaketails-2, i just found http://arianne.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php?title=ArianneAuthors&amp;action=history

[19:40] &lt;mblanch&gt; I have problems with people to use Bugs tracker

[19:40] &lt;hendrik&gt; Snaketails-2, i just found http://arianne.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php?title=ArianneAuthors

[19:40] &lt;ChadF&gt; it's just that my ideas don't always follow the structure of the main stuff (because some things transend areas), and spliting them up in the common area would be fragmented or redundent of I had to explain/link some of the framework ideas in each.

[19:40] &lt;ChadF&gt; s=c

[19:40] &lt;ChadF&gt; of=if

[19:40] &lt;durkham&gt; i have problems with the bug tracker as it is not dedicated enough

[19:41] &lt;timothyb89&gt; durkham, mblanch: what about SF tasks? I used them and they work pretty well :)

[19:41] &lt;mblanch&gt; timothyb89: not as clear as tracker

[19:41] &lt;durkham&gt; i never seen a working one ?

[19:41] &lt;ChadF&gt; durkham: as in a bug (for release versions) and bugs-devel for unrealesed things?

[19:41] &lt;mblanch&gt; timothyb89: I have them disabled for Arianne

[19:41] &lt;timothyb89&gt; Ah, yes...

[19:42] &lt;hendrik&gt; it misses dependencies.

[19:42] &lt;durkham&gt; lets tae the bug i committed about the wrong portals

[19:42] &lt;danter&gt; ohh, never seen that authors page before...

[19:42] &lt;hendrik&gt; but it has one huge advantage: It is simple to use for normal users (non developers)

[19:43] &lt;durkham&gt; is there a project using it at sf.net so i could take a look at?

[19:43] &lt;durkham&gt; does have subtasks to tasks

[19:44] &lt;timothyb89&gt; durnham: sf tasks? mine uses tasks --&gt; sf.net/projects/mazerunner

[19:44] &lt;timothyb89&gt; *durkham sorry

[19:44] &lt;durkham&gt; like have a task new map gruntyplace

[19:44] &lt;durkham&gt; then there would be NPCs on ti and quests

[19:44] &lt;durkham&gt; there would be tiles to do

[19:44] &lt;durkham&gt; there would be coding needed

[19:44] &lt;durkham&gt; as subtasks

[19:45] &lt;timothyb89&gt; all there.... but as mblanch said, it can get confusing

[19:45] &lt;ChadF&gt; Show we add Category/Group choices to the trackin items? Right now they're just empty to group things better&gt;

[19:45] &lt;ChadF&gt; ?

[19:46] &lt;ChadF&gt; rr.. empty to = empty, to

[19:46] &lt;Snaketails-2&gt; Good night all, 3:45am and I fallng asleep, good luck with meeting ;o)

[19:46] &lt;mblanch&gt; I just use Stendhal:. Marauroa:, Wiki:, Website:

[19:46] &lt;Oslsachem&gt; night Snaketails-2

[19:46] &lt;lenocas&gt; good night, SnakeTails :)

[19:46] &lt;mblanch&gt; We can expand that idea to fit our needs

[19:48] &lt;ChadF&gt; things like client and server, and sub-groups like sound, quests, gui, etc..

[19:48] &lt;durkham&gt; chadf that sounds good as a start

[19:49] &lt;hendrik&gt; the sub-groups sound good but i don't know about client/server.

[19:49] &lt;ChadF&gt; hendrik: that was for general cases that don't fit to a specific subtype

[19:49] &lt;ChadF&gt; so they could be assigned to the lower level that fits the problem

[19:49] &lt;ChadF&gt; rr.. lowest

[19:49] &lt;hendrik&gt; ok

[19:50] &lt;durkham&gt; it is possible to change the category !?

[19:50] &lt;ChadF&gt; so there would be a &quot;general&quot; type for ones that are indeterminent

[19:51] &lt;durkham&gt; yes and then we could have the bugs to our users and categorized for our needs?

[19:51] &lt;mblanch&gt; yes

[19:51] &lt;durkham&gt; ok lets give that a try

[19:51] &lt;ChadF&gt; for example: &quot;item drop doesn't work&quot;. Is that a client bug, or a server bug. At first glance if would be placed in a general cat/group until more reaserch is done

[19:52] &lt;durkham&gt; like userSubmit :)

[19:52] &lt;ChadF&gt; then if someone looks at the client side and finds it working there, they change the state to server

[19:53] &lt;mblanch&gt; ok

[19:53] &lt;mblanch&gt; anything else on this topic?

[19:53] &lt;hendrik&gt; Items&amp;Creatures

[19:53] &lt;durkham&gt; quality?

[19:53] &lt;mblanch&gt; Any measure apart of test server and 1 week pre announce of the release to improve quality?

[19:53] &lt;durkham&gt; tests?

[19:54] &lt;ChadF&gt; and maybe someone stubles over the bug in the server, but doesn't know how to fix it, they might change it to a even more specfic type (to let others know where to look). Ok, I'm done with this now. ;)

[19:54] &lt;mblanch&gt; Right! :) Tests :)

[19:54] &lt;ChadF&gt; rr.. stumbles

[19:54] &lt;mblanch&gt; I will write test cases for the code as I start doing the porting

[19:54] &lt;durkham&gt; do not change the tests to pass, by commenting them out !!!!!!!

[19:54] &lt;kymara&gt; also being more responsible for testing your own changes

[19:54] &lt;dine&gt; Sorry, I have to go now...I would have liked to say sth. about maps etc, but I'm going to a party tonight. But I want you to know that I started making a cannalization beneath ados. Till later

[19:54] &lt;dine&gt; bye

[19:54] &lt;durkham&gt; have fun

[19:54] &lt;hendrik&gt; durkham, i agree if and only if the test has worked once.

[19:54] &lt;Oslsachem&gt; bye dine

[19:55] &lt;mort4&gt; bye all

[19:55] &lt;ChadF&gt; durkham: do not write tests that break when the impl changes! ;)

[19:55] &lt;durkham&gt; no disagree on that

[19:55] &lt;Oslsachem&gt; bye mort4

[19:55] &lt;durkham&gt; chadf that would be do not write tests

[19:55] &lt;kymara&gt; ChadF: why not rewrite the test when the impl is changed?

[19:55] &lt;mblanch&gt; durkham: exactly, no empty tests :P

[19:55] &lt;ChadF&gt; tests should be based on api specs,

[19:55] &lt;durkham&gt; i agree to no empty tests

[19:55] &lt;ChadF&gt; not just &quot;how it seems to work now&quot;

[19:56] &lt;mblanch&gt; ok

[19:56] &lt;ChadF&gt; otherwise it's not testing anything meaningful

[19:56] &lt;ChadF&gt; kymara: I did.. I commented out the obsolete test code

[19:56] &lt;hendrik&gt; such tests are useful if you want to refactor the code.

[19:56] &lt;durkham&gt; as you all seem to understand every little bit of this pasta of code , i really admire

[19:57] &lt;durkham&gt; i need the tests to understand what is going on

[19:57] &lt;durkham&gt; they shall brake if some changes in code changes the behaviour

[19:58] &lt;mblanch&gt; ok, anything else?

[19:58] &lt;hendrik&gt; please do not comment out code. If it is not used anymore, just delete it. It can be restored from cvs.

[19:58] &lt;ChadF&gt; but sometimes what is going on shouldn't be assumed as how it should be. Only the things that *have* to work a certain way need to be tested well. Everythin else is impl.

[19:58] &lt;durkham&gt; chadf xou did comment the tests out , you commented their implementation

[19:58] &lt;durkham&gt; so they passed but were not there ynamore

[19:58] &lt;hendrik&gt; ChadF, it is sometimes hard to understand the difference.

[19:59] &lt;mblanch&gt; ChadF: I have found lots of bugs that were on code that was simple :)

[19:59] &lt;mblanch&gt; I will make sure most methods are covered by tests

[19:59] &lt;durkham&gt; the tests i did today on server side items are throwing exceptions

[19:59] &lt;mblanch&gt; but I need the compromise of everyone writting new code to make sure that if they make a test fail ( that used to work ) to fix the code, not the test :P

[20:00] &lt;kymara&gt; hendrik: i can follow that rule if we can make the exceptions to it clear - like we're ok to comment in StendhalQuestSystem, so we can say in the top (if not already there)

[20:00] &lt;durkham&gt; i do not know if this is behaviour as designed

[20:00] &lt;hendrik&gt; ((i have grouped the level 0 players account create time. They are about 300-400 per mounth from 2005-12 until 2007-04. So this is an ongoing issue))

[20:00] &lt;durkham&gt; ok chad then how should Item(Item) constructor work?

[20:01] &lt;hendrik&gt; kymara, yes, i mean large amounts of code.

[20:02] &lt;ChadF&gt; durkham: things like this are what need to be formally defined, as right now devels have to look at how other code does it and how replicating it is the right way. But that's not a good thing. =|

[20:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; ok

[20:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; ...

[20:02] &lt;ChadF&gt; rr.. and how = and hope

[20:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; Maraurod 2.0 has been widely documented

[20:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; I plan to do the same on stendhal and write test cases

[20:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; But everyone should contribute too.

[20:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; ok?

[20:02] &lt;hendrik&gt; yes

[20:02] &lt;durkham&gt; :)

[20:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; ok, next topic :)

[20:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; * RP features

[20:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; * Monsters

[20:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; * Maps

[20:02] &lt;mblanch&gt; * Music

[20:03] &lt;mblanch&gt; RP features at last :)

[20:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; we should do something about camping.

[20:03] &lt;lenocas&gt; yes :)

[20:03] &lt;mblanch&gt; Yes

[20:03] &lt;mblanch&gt; I think about changing the combat formula right now

[20:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; now it is required to reach some parts of the world.

[20:03] &lt;mblanch&gt; for example?

[20:03] &lt;hendrik&gt; Two players with the stats of &quot;hendrik&quot; are unable to hurt vampire lord.

[20:04] &lt;kymara&gt; they must work together, then?

[20:04] &lt;kymara&gt; same with the dark elves, though

[20:04] &lt;kymara&gt; i think lifesteal is a difficult one to balance (i have tried to rebalance the dark elves)

[20:04] &lt;hendrik&gt; it heals to fast because it causes to much damage because i did not train my def.