Stendhal Development Meeting 2010-06-20/Result Log: Difference between revisions

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Line 3: {{Stendhal Development Meeting 2010-06-08}} == First steps of new players == * Some improvements since the last meeting: ~~= TODO =~~ Cleaned up the tutorial, it was still talking about double clicking for example. Rats in Semos Village don't run away anymore so it is be easier for new players to kill them. * There were suggestions to tell new players about: Players can run faster than most creatures to get away {{Tracker\|3020813}} Player can eat while fighting. {{Tracker\|3020115}} == Voice == ~~== First steps of new players ==~~ * A voiceover might be an effective way to get information to new players (we need a warning if they have no sound) [20:01] <hendrikus> But we did a few changes to the world in the last two weeks. An in-character introduction when you create your account was suggested [20:01] <hendrikus> We cleaned up the tutorial, it was still talking about double clicking for example. Telling that Semos is a rural town, in need of protection because the army is far away [20:01] <hendrikus> And rats in Semos Village don't run away anymore. *And that you are the one who is going to protect it. Well, if you can convince Hayunn that you are strong enough [20:02] <hendrikus> So it should be easier for new player to kill them. * NPCs could give more helpful hints when asked help - we'd need [[StendhalNPCIdeas\|hint ideas]] (omero) * Players are not directed to semos farm land by anything currently (but it's a good place for low levels) - a sign? ** It needs more NPCs - someone hoeing the weeds in the wheat field? (omero) * Books in the library could help to add information - we need text ideas == Marking dangerous zones == * Marking dangerous zones, or more general, making suggestions to player which zones are good for their level. [20:02] <hendrikus> Another topic was marking dangerous zones. a compas or a thermometer which shows danger of the zone for example [20:02] <hendrikus> Or more general, makng suggestions to player which zones are good for their level. should dangerous areas be marked using colors on the map? [20:03] <hendrikus> There has some work being done on statistics: http://stendhalgame.org/wiki/images/9/99/Zone_statistics_without_collision.xls Excel file listing number of creatures and their level in every zone: [http://stendhalgame.org/wiki/images/9/99/Zone_statistics_without_collision.xls Zone_statistics_without_collision.xls] [20:03] <hendrikus> That is an excel file which does some math about the number and levels of creatures in every zone. A zone is something like int_semos_bank, 0_semos_city (see column A) [20:03] <hendrikus> I think it is pretty good at telling which zones are dangerous and which zones are safe. Column D seems to be a good measurement: Density of danger (the sum of the levels of all creatures in there divided by the size of the zone). [20:04] <hendrikus> But it needs some clever tweeking to map those danger levels to player levels. Clever tweaking needed to map those danger levels to player levels. [20:04] <hendrikus> I tried a simple approach of saying hell is good for player level 597. And caluclated the other levels on a linear basis. I tried a simple approach (column B) of saying hell is good for player level 597. And calculated the other levels on a linear basis. But applying a linear scale did not give good the results. Level seems to be a bit like a log scale. [20:04] <hendrikus> But the results are not good. Suggestions are welcome using /support or in #arianne on irc.freenode.net. There is a "Chat" link on http://stendhalgame.org [20:05] <hendrikus> So if someone has some clever idea, please let us know. more guidance for players to find areas that are safe for them [20:05] <tigertoes> would almost have to be a visit and see thing [20:06] <tigertoes> perhaps on test machine change lvl and then visit zone [20:06] <hendrikus> Oh, you can use /support. Or preferable: You can reach the developers and contributors in #arianne on irc.freenode.net. There is a "Chat" link on http://stendhalgame.org [20:06] <laguz> what means "not good"? [20:07] <hendrikus> laguz, I guess aplying a linear scale was not a good aproach. [20:07] <omero> for zone, it is intended 'quadrant' of the atlas or a radius around the player? [20:07] <superkym> it did not give a good match when checking some values against experienced player's opinions [20:07] <superkym> zone means for example 0_semos_city normally [20:07] <hendrikus> In that excel page, you can see the name of the zone in column A. Column D has the sum of the levels of all creaturs in there devided by the size of the zone. [20:08] <hendrikus> So column D seems to be a good measurement. [20:08] <omero> density of danger... [20:08] <hendrikus> The attempt to map it to player level in column B, did not work out. [20:08] <love_puppet> why was it devided by the size of the map? [20:09] <hendrikus> If there are lots of creatures in a small spot, that attack you at the same time, it is way more dangerous. [20:09] <omero> a pack of dogs will kill a lion [20:09] <hendrikus> If there is the same number of creatures of the same level, but they are spread out in a huge zone, it is less risky. [20:09] <hendrikus> yes. [20:10] <kiheru> also creature level likely needs a slightly higher weight than linear == ~~First~~Min ~~steps~~level ofon ~~new players~~items == * If new players get a high level item quickly, leveling up may become more difficult (for example because they are not hit anymore and therefore do not get atk/def xp). [20:10] <tigertoes> one thing that was never explained to me when i was new that might be of help is that we can run faster than they can, so, unless trapped, should be able to get away help wanted on creating a list of suggested min levels ({3016679}) [20:10] <hendrikus> tigertoes, good point. the lowest creature that drops the item can be a starting point for defining minimum levels [20:11] <hendrikus> Perhaps the problem is related to level being a bit like a log unit. fine tuning needed because: [20:11] <omero> and eating helps during combat... this is something one finds out later * strong items with very low probability [20:12] <hendrikus> I think there is a tutorial event, or Hayunn talks about that. * NPCs selling items (for example xin blanca selling low level items), [20:12] <hendrikus> But Hayunn might have to much text for impatient newbies. * quest rewards? [20:12] <tigertoes> yes laguz is going to [[Stendhal_Item_Ideas#List_of_weapons_and_armor_items_and_their_min_levels\|work]] on the creature based approach [20:12] <superkym> And some is duplicated with tutorials [20:12] <tigertoes> i think he might [20:12] <omero> hayun says to eat regularly... doesn't say you can eat at all timie [20:13] <hendrikus> okay, perhaps we should rephrase that. [20:14] <hendrikus> In real life you don't eat during a fight, so that might be not obvious. [20:14] <hendrikus> Another related topic is minimum level of items. [20:14] <laguz> very important point [20:14] <omero> actually, I thought that one wouldn't be able to eat while fighting and was surprised when I fount it was possible == ~~Min~~New ~~level on items~~dungeons == * killerm proposed the creation of a new Dungeon [20:15] <hendrikus> On the one hand we want new players to improve. But if they get a high level item quickly, leveling up may become more difficult. there is a tutorial on how to add maps at [[HowToUseTiledToCreateStendhalMaps]] [20:15] <laguz> the lowest creature that drops the item should be the minium level [[Stendhal Creature Ideas]] explains which information is necessary to create new creatures and [[HowToAddCreaturesStendhal]] is the technical counterpart [20:16] <hendrikus> If someone wants to work on creating a list of suggested items, please add it to http://sourceforge.net/support/tracker.php?aid=3016679 please join {{irc-arianne}} on IRC to discuss the creation of new dungeons in great detail [20:16] <storyteller> Good idea, Laguz [20:16] <superkym> laguz: you can buy items :) [20:16] <love_puppet> i also agree with laguz [20:16] <superkym> I mean, from npcs. [20:16] <storyteller> Yes you can buy, but... [20:16] <hendrikus> That sounds like a good start. I guess it will need some tweaking. [20:16] <storyteller> The items shall be marked with a minimum level the creature has [20:16] <laguz> ok kym, but no problem or? [20:16] <love_puppet> i also thing that quest items should not be lvl req on it as u worked to get that item [20:16] <superkym> So for example i'd still suggest those sold by xin blanca are lower level. [20:17] <superkym> love_puppet: unfortunately people just help their clones or other much too low level chars to get them. [20:17] <hendrikus> Yes, even if they are dropped by elfs (is that true? I have not talked to him in ages) [20:17] <storyteller> For example a creature has level 20: Then you only can carry an item dropped by this creature with level 20 [20:18] <hendrikus> But looking at creature level seems to be a good starting point. [20:18] <superkym> We did suggest last time that if people want to add mnore min levels to more items they can give a list [20:18] hendrikus points at: http://sourceforge.net/support/tracker.php?aid=3016679 [20:18] <kiheru> some creatures drop very good items with very low probability [20:18] <superkym> For forming the original lists we did use drops of creatures as a guideline. [20:20] <hendrikus> I mean check in which cases the creature level approach fits? [20:20] <laguz> hendrik, ok i can take a look ~~== First steps of new players ==~~ == New quests == [20:19] <superkym> Can I ask something about the tutorial topic? omero suggested a 'cheque' you can spend at one of the seller NPC [20:19] <hendrikus> laguz, do you want to have a look at the min level thingy? [20:20] <superkym> I wondered if a voiceover may help. Text, people may not read. But is it perhaps easier to listen? [20:20] <storyteller> Hey, thats a good idea, Kym :) [20:20] <storyteller> Listen by the way [20:20] <storyteller> while starting to play :) [20:20] <superkym> It could only be secondary as not all people have sound. But I would worry it is a bit annoying to hear someone [20:21] <hendrikus> I like the idea. [20:21] <storyteller> Hmm... [20:21] <storyteller> then the first thing you learn is /mute ;) [20:21] <hendrikus> What about a introduction to the world? [20:22] <love_puppet> speaking of the tutorial some thing need to be said about the semos farm land [20:22] <madmetzger> i like that idea, too. maybe there could be a textual notice to the player if he has the sound muted? [20:22] <storyteller> I think an itroduction should come step by step [20:22] <storyteller> not everything at one time [20:22] <hendrikus> storyteller, that is already the case, isn't it? [20:23] <storyteller> Yes... [20:23] <tigertoes> perhaps we have books in the library to click on info on specific subject [20:23] <superkym> We do :) [20:23] <storyteller> But too much information at the beginning may be too much for players who just want to play [20:23] <hendrikus> I am thinking about having an in-character introduction when you create your account. [20:23] <tigertoes> i meant the farmland stuff [20:23] <superkym> But more books would be nice. If anyone has texts ideas they can easily be added. [20:23] <hendrikus> Just a couple of sentences. [20:23] <omero> npc should give more helpfull hints when asked help [20:23] <loko2026> I agree with that [20:24] <love_puppet> some thing mabey just a sign saying in town north to semos farm land [20:24] <Oslsachem> information should be delivered contextually when needed [20:24] <hendrikus> omero, can you help with this? Write some hints down? [20:24] <superkym> again, if you have text ideas for npcs to say when you say help, please tell us, we can add them easily. [20:24] <omero> sure [20:24] <storyteller> Hendrikus: What about that in-character introduction? How should it be done? [20:24] <omero> besides.. the farm area is underpopulated of npc (imho) [20:25] <omero> theres vegetables, ought to be someone caring for them [20:25] <hendrikus> Telling about Semos being a rural town, in need for protection because the army is far away. [20:25] <tigertoes> someone hoing the weeds in the wheat field [20:25] <storyteller> Ah, okay [20:25] <hendrikus> And that you are the one who is going to protect it. Well, if you can convince Hayunn that you are strong enough. [20:25] <hendrikus> Really short, but I think that would be nice. [20:25] <storyteller> yes, it's not bad [20:25] <superkym> sounds good to me [20:26] <storyteller> :) [20:26] <superkym> tigertoes and omero, have you seen the npc ideas page on the wiki? from ideas there we can easily add new npcs to game [20:26] <tigertoes> not yet, but i will check it out [20:26] <superkym> http://stendhalgame.org/wiki/StendhalNPCIdeas [20:26] <omero> I'd like to volunteer for a hoeing npc [20:27] <superkym> Great. it explains the details you need to come up with so that any developer can easily add the npc you invented [20:27] <superkym> That family with surname 'Farmer' in Ados came from that page recently. === ~~New~~Random ~~dungeons~~Teleport === [20:27] <killerm> gustaria me to propose the creation of new Dungeon with new creaturas or already known [20:29] <hendrikus> Do you home some ideas about that new dungeon already? [20:30] <blazins> We could also enlarge the map of stendhal create new regions or countries [20:30] <killerm> that talks about already this the creation of the new Dungeon [20:30] <kezman> killerm say i would like to propose some new caves or dungeons with new creatures already know [20:31] <hendrikus> There is a tutorial on how to add maps at http://stendhalgame.org/wiki/HowToUseTiledToCreateStendhalMaps [20:31] <hendrikus> And if you join #arianne ("Chat" link on http://stendhalgame.org) we can discuss that in great detail). * love_puppet suggested that players are teleported at a random time to an area where they have to do some task. ~~== First steps of new players ==~~ * should have a good reward * can catch bots * may be annoying if you are on a journey with friends === Bank Book === [20:32] <laguz> maybe it make sense to split the library in different scopes and add some quests to it [20:33] <laguz> so the players are "forced" to read them^^ [20:33] <omero> ah, on the subject of the library [20:33] <laguz> yes [20:33] <omero> how about having the 'fetch the book' quest repeatable (sort of pizza delivery reversed)? [20:33] <laguz> parts for fight, world etc..or what ever [20:33] <omero> it would encourage travelling [20:33] <superkym> omero: sure, that's a nice idea, i like that [20:34] <hendrikus> Or we could have quests sending players into certain dungeons. [20:34] <superkym> the one we already have for ceryl and jynath but add more than just jynath? [20:34] <omero> precisely, superkym [20:34] <tigertoes> yes [20:34] <omero> more 'book holders' [20:35] <laguz> but the books should not be just given by the NPC [20:35] <laguz> the players have to move and read/look arround [20:35] <omero> hidden? [20:35] <laguz> maybe a keyword read out of the books [20:36] <hendrikus> In that case it may be a good idea to use something else beside books. [20:36] <laguz> so the player can tell it the NPC and get the book for the keyword [20:36] <omero> there's lots of chest that would be nice if could be opened (maybe booby trapped) [20:36] <hendrikus> For example let players collect runes that are hidden in the world. [20:36] <madmetzger> that sounds like nice idea for luring players into dungeons [20:37] <tigertoes> and once they have gone there, they can be considered safe areas for them? [20:37] <hendrikus> Of course it requires some thinking to make sure that players are sent to dungeons approriate for their levels. [20:37] <omero> and it would make more thinkfull play instead of bash-the-monster [20:37] <hendrikus> yes * torvald suggested a bank book, which shows all your bank accounts ~~== New quests ==~~ * being able to remember where you put things or come up with your own organisation system, is a challenge * perhaps as a good quest reward but maybe not as an item you always keep ===Fetching books quest === [20:37] <torvald> what about some nice new quest rewards? [20:37] <love_puppet> how about ramdom events? [20:37] <banki> eyah that would be nice [20:37] <superkym> torvald: items, or other fresh ideas? [20:38] <hendrikus> For example? [20:38] <omero> a compas which shows danger of the zone [20:38] <Oslsachem> like what, torvald? [20:38] <omero> or a termometer... [20:38] <love_puppet> when your playing the game you could be ramdom teleported to an area and asked to do some thing [20:38] <hendrikus> omero, we need a good way to calcualte "danger of a zone" automatically. There was some talking about that earlier today. [20:38] <torvald> well, for example a bank book, where you can see all your bank accounts. saves you from making screen shots [20:39] <tigertoes> great idea [20:39] <banki> or a mount for faste travling? [20:39] <superkym> hmmm but i try to avoid things which actually make the game rather too easy [20:39] <hendrikus> love_puppet at a random time? Or to a random place when doing something like using an orb? [20:39] <love_puppet> just ramdom [20:39] <omero> how about a 'cheque' you can spend at a one of the seller npc? [20:39] <superkym> being able to remember where you put things or come up with your own organisation system, is a challenge i like [20:39] <superkym> like in real life. [20:39] <love_puppet> it was on a nother game to get peple who where botting [20:40] <love_puppet> but for the peoople at thare computer it was good [20:40] <superkym> it could be a good quest reward but maybe not as an item you always keep [20:40] <torvald> in real life you have bank books ;-) [20:40] <love_puppet> money items just good thing for doing simple stuff [20:40] <love_puppet> like killing a rat [20:40] <hendrikus> Sounds rather anoying to me when you are traveling with a group of friends and random people disapear. [20:40] <superkym> torvald: oops, i am not organised enough in real life :P [20:40] <love_puppet> some thing any player could do [20:40] <laguz> couldnt we add the option to buy more space for the chests? [20:40] <superkym> laguz, we are (slowly) working on containers [20:41] <superkym> so that you can buy or get rewarded a bag, a box, etc [20:41] <kezman> in areas dangerous to level up marked for color on the map [20:41] <love_puppet> but it kept u at your computer cus if u dident complete it in the time amount u where sent back to a ramdom area (a town) and u didenty ger the items [20:41] <kezman> also in caves ? [20:41] <laguz> ok [20:41] <hendrikus> You already get more space as you grow stronger and get access to banks in more cities. [20:41] <love_puppet> but it was worth it omero suggested a repeatable [[StendhalQuest#Help_Ceryl_find_an_old_book\|fetch the book]] quest for different npcs (add quest link) ~~== More storage ==~~ * the npc would have the book and the player collects it * it could be hidden around them for player to find * laguz added to this that something could be forced to be read from the book - a keyword === Runes quest === [20:41] <superkym> Indeed. You'd be surprised how many players don't seem to use their ados chests or the zara house chest at all! reading a word from a book to collect which is hidden is similar to a [[Stendhal_Quest_Ideas#Dungeon_portal_runes\|runes quest idea]] [20:41] <love_puppet> the last one that happenden to be i was asked to open the blue chest runes could be used to get players into dungeons [20:42] <love_puppet> and i grew 2 lvls [20:42] <madmetzger> i think most players are too lazy to walk there or spend scrolls for it [20:42] <omero> there's a chest in zara's house?! [20:42] <love_puppet> and when u where done u where sent right back to where u where [20:42] <superkym> oops, i should not be a spoiler. [20:42] <Oslsachem> in real life people don't want to have many accounts either for basically the same purpose [20:42] <omero> lol [20:42] <tigertoes> :) [20:42] <love_puppet> as the tasks dident take long at all to complete [20:42] <torvald> another thing would be to include information from the web site. as for example a creature lexicon, where you can see drops and their likelyhood by clicking on a creature [20:43] <laguz> to buy space for semos chest is a good reason to take much of the players money^^ [20:43] hendrikus has bank accounts at two different banks. [20:43] <hendrikus> in real life. [20:43] <superkym> i think that changing the size of the chest like that mid-game, mid-player life, would be hard. [20:43] <hendrikus> Yes. [20:44] <tigertoes> could be something like the locked box thing in banks [20:44] <superkym> but you can buy a large box to store items [20:44] <superkym> and that can be put in a chest. [20:44] <hendrikus> That sounds strange. [20:44] <superkym> this is a feature we are working on and just need a little help to complete [20:44] <torvald> afolder for scrolls would be nice too [20:44] <superkym> oh, ok. [20:45] <omero> ah, but wouldn't be nice to have a chest in spots like dungeons? sort of secret place (beside the vault) [20:45] <kezman> yes :D [20:45] <love_puppet> i was think mabey pets could have bag spaces on them [20:45] <superkym> omero: i am not sure why semos bank merchants would themselves put a chest there [20:45] <Oslsachem> having portable bags and having bags represented as physical items is interesting [20:45] <omero> the spots don't ned to be advertized... not obvious to find [20:46] <superkym> omero: maybe just storage spaces under a stone, say, but open to all, not private. i think that storyteller suggested something very similar [20:46] <kezman> is like chest in cave but make quest first before using [20:46] <superkym> i like that idea, of hideyholes. but again it needs some work. [20:46] <killerm> I would propose to take into account the proposal for the creation of new places and creatures (and for players who ask where they can leveliar the areas that are not safe for them to become blocked) [20:46] <Oslsachem> it would be nice that the player was able to carry her chest from the bank to her house for example [20:47] <superkym> i cannot imagine a bank chest in a dungeon in real life. [20:47] <omero> but a pot, a sack... a smal cache of things for planned trips to lower levels [20:47] <storyteller> Well, to the webside thing: In my opinion the webside should be made more attractive, also to be made interactive to use by the way while playing [20:47] <omero> you have to build up a reserve there... [20:47] <Oslsachem> it's just a chest. The bank label is due to the place it is. [20:48] <Oslsachem> (where) [20:48] <hendrikus> killerm, yes. We should talk about that later, because I guess that cannot be discusssed in 10 minutes. [20:48] <hendrikus> storyteller, i am going to say something about the website next. [20:48] <storyteller> Okay [20:49] <laguz> i would not add chest to the worls that are bound to a bank [20:49] <hendrikus> Can we go to the next topic? [20:49] <superkym> We will summarise all these chest and bag and storage ideas on the meeting page [20:49] <laguz> players have to leave the dungeons [20:49] <superkym> So yes, I think go on, as these ideas wil not be forgotten but they need more thought. [20:49] <kezman> area to trade is need in ados bank [20:49] <superkym> kezman: noted. == More storage == ~~== Account and character handling ==~~ Players ask for more space in chests {{Tracker\|1713621}} * You already get more space as you grow stronger and get access to banks in more cities * Many players don't seem to use the far chests like Ados or Zara's much * We are working on containers so that you can buy or get rewarded a bag, a box, scroll wallet, etc {{Tracker\|2933768}} * But putting a big box inside a chest sounds strange * Changing size of chest mid game is not possible. * Pets could have bag spaces {{Tracker\|1937766}} * Chest in spots like dungeons, maybe just storage spaces under a stone, say, but open to all, not private. i think that storyteller suggested something very similar {{Tracker\|2974131}} * Portable chests == Account and character handling == [20:49] <hendrikus> In the next version there will be a change to the way accounts are handled hendrik described the changes, which are now summarized at: [[Stendhal Account Merging]] [20:50] <hendrikus> Currently an account has exactly one character. existing accounts can be merged (see link above) [20:50] <hendrikus> So I have two accounts: hendrikus and hendrik. I can login my characters "hendrik" and "hendrikus" at the same time even after merging them into one account [20:50] <hendrikus> (In fact, I have 15 accounts on various test servers.) there <del>will be</del> is a new page variant of on the hall of fame: [http://stendhalgame.org/world/hall-of-fame/friends_overview.html Me and my friends] [20:51] <hendrikus> In the next version it will be possible to have multiple characters in one account. merging accounts is optional, it is fine to keep them separated [20:51] <killerm> exelent server admins can unmerge account, for example in case of password theft [20:51] <omero> hey this is a nice new featyure if someone is password sharing and the other person wants to exploit that, he can simple take all items. [20:51] <hendrikus> So I can login as account "hendrikus" and then I can select the characters "hendrik" or "hendrikus". this has already happened in the past and is no new risk with account merging. [20:51] <storyteller> can you put your old characters to one account then? [20:51] <tigertoes> will only one be playable at a time? [20:51] <hendrikus> storyteller, yes, there will be a function which can merge old accounts. [20:51] <storyteller> Okay [20:52] <moonligth> :) [20:52] <hendrikus> No, i can login "hendrik" and "hendrikus" at the same time. [20:52] <superkym> tigertoes, no [20:52] <tigertoes> ok [20:52] <Oslsachem> will fast user switching be feasible in the future? [20:52] <hendrikus> The reason behind this is to make the account-dropdown list less crowded. [20:53] <storyteller> Ah, what I wanted to mention... What is about this reconnect- thing? [20:53] <hendrikus> And there will be a new page variant of on the hall of fame: [20:53] <hendrikus> "Me and my friends". [20:53] <storyteller> Some minutes ago I lost connection for 10 seconds or so [20:53] <superkym> Can we please listen to what is already possible and planned and even coded, first? [20:53] <hendrikus> If someone wants to work on reconnect, feel free to do so. [20:53] <superkym> Then add ideas later> [20:54] <storyteller> Okay, Kym [20:54] <hendrikus> So in the next version, after logging in, there will be a dialog to chose one of your characters. [20:55] <hendrikus> You can go to the website and merge your accounts there. [20:55] <tigertoes> is this a personal choice kind of thing? [20:55] <Oslsachem> what password will prevail? [20:55] <tigertoes> ie, if i wish to keep all my accounts separate, can i? [20:55] <hendrikus> It will be possible to play multiple characters at the same time. So you can idle in bank with one character and fight with another. [20:55] <hendrikus> tigertoes, yes you can. [20:55] <superkym> tigertoes, there is no obligation to do it [20:56] <tigertoes> ok [20:56] <superkym> but you will see there will be advantages, i think [20:56] <hendrikus> tigertoes, if you do nothing, they will be kept seperate. If you want to merge them, you have to get active. [20:56] <killerm> I wonder players can use two at once or just one at a time [20:56] <axelf> less passwords to remember is a great advantage i think [20:56] <superkym> killerm: they can use two at once [20:56] <tigertoes> :) [20:57] <hendrikus> The webpage on http://stendhalgame.org for account merging, will ask you to login into one account. Then it will ask you for username and password of the account to merge in. [20:57] <hendrikus> The username/password of the first account will stay, Oslsachem. [20:57] <tigertoes> so this can be abused by those who have already exchanged passwords :( [20:57] <hendrikus> Of course the page is not up yet, we will publish it after the next release. [20:58] <tigertoes> causing support issues [20:58] <superkym> tigertoes, we have thought of this, and that we need to store old values [20:58] <hendrikus> Passwort sharing is forbidden anyway and there is a high risk to get a permanent ban. [20:58] <superkym> Indeed. If you did shared passwords your problems are already very big. [20:58] <tigertoes> i know, just making that statement for public [20:58] <hendrikus> Server Admins will be able to unmerge accounts. [20:59] <hendrikus> But I doubt that there will be a huge demand. [20:59] <hendrikus> If someone is password sharing and the other person wants to exploit that, he can simple take all items. I mean this has already happend in the past. [20:59] <hendrikus> So there is no new risk with account merging. [20:59] <tigertoes> true [20:59] <omero> is it possible to change password? [21:00] <hendrikus> Yes. [21:00] <love_puppet> yes on the website [21:00] <superkym> I think that may be answered in our faq, can you type /faq ? [21:00] <Oslsachem> well... if you used different passwords for each character before, now you're a bit more vulnerable [21:00] <hendrikus> On http://stendhalgame.org there is a "login" link in the upper right hand corner. [21:00] <blazins> because it is prohibited from sharing passwords? [21:00] <hendrikus> Oslsachem you can keep them seperated. [21:00] <Oslsachem> a player who somehow gets your password can loot all your characters [21:01] <storyteller> This login button should be made a little bit more eye-catching [21:01] <omero> yep [21:01] <superkym> blazins, it is prohibited to share passwords for a number of reasons. I will try to list some [21:01] <omero> never noticed [21:01] <tigertoes> also, we should have translations about password sharing [21:01] <superkym> blazins, one is that it is very unfair to other players if you let other people make progress on your account. [21:01] <tigertoes> that way we know it is in a language that the players understand [21:01] <superkym> blazins, that means you didn't make your own progress, someone else did. [21:01] <storyteller> I would prefer it in over the "Play now" and over the "Download" button [21:01] <killerm> i has one question? [21:02] <killerm> as people are supposed to get my password if I have ever given there is some way? [21:02] <Oslsachem> it is interesting to translate all the rules, tigertoes [21:02] <superkym> balzins, another is that sharing passwords might seem 'ok' between friends, to the friends. but things can turn bad. the friends can steal items from each other and then it make sa support problem when they complain. [21:02] <tigertoes> all rules would be good, but upassword sharing is very critical [21:02] <superkym> blazins, it has wasted a lot of time. you should never trust anyone with your password. [21:02] <hendrikus> Well, it should be obvious to everyone that you don't give your passwords away. [21:03] <blazins> but if there is because they trust [21:03] <superkym> yes, to be honest isn't it the first rule of internet use? == ~~Translating~~Password ~~rules~~Sharing == * [[Stendhal Rules\|rules]] should be translated (start is done, please help) * it is prohibited to share passwords for a number of reasons: * one is that it is very unfair to other players if you let other people make progress on your account. * that means you didn't make your own progress, someone else did. * another is that sharing passwords might seem 'ok' between friends, to the friends. but things can turn bad. the friends can steal items from each other and then it makes a support problem when they complain. * it has wasted a lot of spare time of the developers, therefore it is likely that you get banned * you should never trust anyone with your password. == Website == [21:03] <tigertoes> i agree hendrikus, but not everyone agrees, there are many cultures here, not all agree it is possible to change password there [21:03] <superkym> for me it is 'ingrained' just like 'don't touch this hot pan' (next version of Stendhal will have a menu to open the password change page) [21:03] <superkym> tigertoes, can you help with translation? on http://stendhalgame.org there is a "login" link in the upper right hand corner. [21:03] <tigertoes> i know english only this login button should be made a little bit more eye-catching, perhaps over the "Play now" and over the "Download" button [21:03] <Oslsachem> how about internationalization? it is a great hurdle for increasing our userbase and sth that will need to be dealt with sooner or later. the website has information which may also be useful to see in game, e.g. drops from a creature [21:03] <omero> I can help translating the rules in italian [21:03] <hendrikus> Oh? No foreign language?! [21:03] <superkym> tigertoes, i think oslachem already did a spanish translation of the rules. if you can recruit others to help that is fine. [21:03] <tigertoes> nope [21:04] <tigertoes> i do know a few different persons of other cultures, i might try [21:04] <hendrikus> thank you. [21:04] <killerm> hey hendrik [21:04] <killerm> in a very short time I change of state are therefore my IP `there is not any problem CAMVIA [21:04] <tigertoes> ok [21:05] <hendrikus> Okay, there is one last topic for today. [21:05] <hendrikus> I know we are already late. [21:05] <Oslsachem> I can give it a try to portuguese, french or italian with the help of a translator :) [21:05] <hendrikus> But I like to ask for some testers. == Testing web starter == please test the web based starter at https://stendhalgame.org/account/mycharacters.html [21:05] <hendrikus> This is not related to the account merging thing. click on your character and wait a bit [21:05] <hendrikus> https://stendhalgame.org/account/mycharacters.html does starting the game work for you? [21:06] <hendrikus> If you go there and login, you will see a list of your characters. Currently excatly one obviously. if you are not using Webstart normally, it will ask you to dowload on the first try. [21:06] <hendrikus> Please click on it and wait a bit. it works for axelf, but he only sees the coffee icon instead of the Stendhal logo icon [21:06] <hendrikus> Does starting the game work for you? tigertoes is missing box of text [21:07] <hendrikus> You don't have to try it now, but please gives some feedback whether it worked or what errors your got. [21:07] <love_puppet> it has asked me to redownload the game [21:07] <hendrikus> Using /support for example. [21:07] <tigertoes> very nice :) [21:07] <love_puppet> how can u add char to it? [21:07] <hendrikus> If you are not using webstart, it will ask you to dowload on the first try. [21:07] <axelf> it works ;) [21:07] <hendrikus> If you try it again later, it should not download again. [21:08] <kiheru> love_puppet: merged characters will appear there [21:08] <hendrikus> Adding chars will be possible after the next version. [21:08] <hendrikus> Not now, because the current version cannot handle that. [21:08] <superkym> so here is maybe one advantage to merging your characters == Getting the word out == * I did some research into how people learn about new games and new applications and 'word of mouth' was the best method [21:09] <tigertoes> i saw something about advertising for new players, is that still to be covered today? So, anyone who has a blog, or some site they can post links, to tell their friends what they are doing, do please feel free to share about Stendhal :) [21:09] <hendrikus> That is a beta test. how many players can be on at once? [21:09] <hendrikus> So please don't tell it new players just yet. * don't worry about player number limits. [21:10] <superkym> The advertising issue was a bit different * stendhalgame.org is a real server in a real data center. [21:10] <hendrikus> It is about getting the word out about Stendhal. So that more people know about it. * it can handle a lot more players and traffic than all the other Stendhal clone server hosted on home internet connections. [21:10] <superkym> It was pretty short: I did some research into how people learn about new games and new applications and 'word of mouth' was the best method [21:11] <tigertoes> oh f [21:11] <axelf> hendrik: there seems to be a littlte difference between login using this character page and the old webstart: now i see only the coffee icon instead of the stendhal logo icon == Translating == [21:11] <Oslsachem> what's the position about internationalization? [21:11] <superkym> So, anyone who has a blog, or some site they can post links, to tell their friends what they are doing, do please feel free to share about Stendhal :) === Translating rules === [21:11] <tigertoes> i am on through that site and now i have no box of text [21:12] <superkym> Oslsachem, sorry, I do not know what you mean. We have started to translate the introduction in various languaes. [21:12] <Oslsachem> because for many players, especially the younger ones, the english is a big hurdle A big thank you to every one who worked on that. [21:12] <laguz> that is true If you know other languages, please help with that. [21:12] <hendrikus> We have started to translate the introduction in various languaes. Either by improving already existing translations or adding new ones. [21:12] <hendrikus> A big thank you to every one who worked on that. Oslsachem translated to Spain and offered to do Portuguese [21:13] <hendrikus> If you know other languages, please help with that. omero offered to translate the rules to Italian [21:13] <hendrikus> Either by improving already existing translations or adding new ones. [21:13] <tigertoes> sorry, i guess i will try that again and write bug rpt === Translating game === [21:14] <hendrikus> For example the text below the screenshots are still open on some transaltions. The translation system we had in place was removed since nobody ever completed 5% of translation needed [21:14] <tigertoes> i wanted to say something about the advertsing for new playuers, i saw you said something kym but didnt see what It was promised that if anyone completes more than 75% it can be re added [21:14] <Oslsachem> I wonder if having internationalization for the game is feasible Coding it is rather simple [21:15] <killerm> ok Commitment would be needed to keep translating new material also [21:15] <hendrikus> For the complete game, it is not. [21:15] <Oslsachem> or if the grammar system is a problem [21:15] <superkym> Oslsacheam, oh, isn't that against what you usually cite as a main rule for stendhal? [21:15] <superkym> That all players should see the same thing? [21:15] <killerm> bye alls [21:15] <killerm> thx [21:15] <hendrikus> No, the problem is that it is a huge amount of work. And everyone who tried has given up after a couple of weeks. [21:16] <hendrikus> No -> the grammar is not the issue. [21:16] <Oslsachem> of course, kym. But in real life we also see the same things and people can speak with customers in different languages [21:16] <superkym> tigertoes, it was a comment that 'word of mouth' seems to be really successful, So to advertise to more people I would ask that people who have blogs or other sites that they can post text or oi links on would share the game :) [21:16] <Oslsachem> I am not afraid of the work [21:16] <tigertoes> oh, i was gonna say something on facebook and try to encourage them to try as there are so many problems now with facebook and their apps [21:17] <tigertoes> but how many players can be on at once? [21:17] <superkym> tigertoes: don't worry about player number limits. [21:18] <blazins> in taringa or yahoo just could be [21:18] <hendrikus> stendhalgame.org is a real server in a real data center. [21:19] <tigertoes> i know, but all it takes is someone to complain for facebook to ban a link [21:19] <hendrikus> It can handle a lot more players and traffic than all the other Stendhal clone server hosted on home internet connections. [21:19] <tigertoes> there are a few former plalyers that could have done that [21:19] <superkym> tigertoes, i am not worried by that, but maybe it shows facebook isn't a great place to advertise [21:19] <tigertoes> i can think of perhaps 3 now [21:20] <tigertoes> i guess so, but i know there are those there who would love it [21:20] <superkym> then use your judgement, you had a solution, that is fine :) [21:20] <tigertoes> yep ~~== Translating game ==~~ == Closing meeting == [21:21] <Oslsachem> the only worry I have is that the internationalization makes the code more cumbersome, quests for example. We'd like to thank everyone for attending. [21:22] <superkym> I have no idea up front how that would be done or maintained. We put up a chatlog and a summary on the wiki and put a link on http://stendhalgame.org [21:22] <hendrikus> We had a translation system in place already. Feel free to join us in [http://stendhalgame.org/chat/ #arianne] on freenode at any time. [21:22] <hendrikus> But since nobody ever completed 5%, i removed it. [21:22] <hendrikus> I promised to readd it, if there is at least 75% translated. [21:23] <hendrikus> But that will probably take half a year of full time work. [21:23] <Oslsachem> ok, are the instructions for translating available somewhere? [21:23] <Oslsachem> oh [21:23] <Oslsachem> so much text? [21:23] <hendrikus> Oslsachem, i can look for it after the meeting. [21:24] <Oslsachem> anyway, it would need the commitment of people who writes new content to keep it going. [21:24] <superkym> Commitment? [21:24] <hendrikus> I cannot provide a spanish translation for stuff I add. [21:25] <superkym> What if the people who write new content do not speak every translated language? [21:25] <Oslsachem> I mean writing the code using templates or whatever [21:25] <hendrikus> That is as easy as putting _( and ) around every string. [21:26] <Oslsachem> that's the difficult part? [21:26] <hendrikus> The difficult part is to stay commited to translate it. [21:27] <tigertoes> exactly [21:27] <hendrikus> As I said most people gave up after a couple of weeks. [21:27] <hendrikus> well not "most", "all". [21:27] <Oslsachem> the whole tranlation is stored in a single file then? [21:28] <hendrikus> Oslsachem we should discuss that at the next meeting or in #arianne. [21:28] <hendrikus> We are already 30 minutes over time. [21:28] <Oslsachem> ok, I'll give it a try and perhaps other will follow in other languages. [21:28] <Oslsachem> ok [21:28] <hendrikus> I like to thank everyone for attending. [21:29] <hendrikus> We will put up a chatlog and a summary on the wiki and put a link on http://stendhalgame.org [21:29] <tigertoes> thanks [21:29] <hendrikus> Feel free to join us in #arianne at any time. [21:31] hendrikus waves: Bye, bye. [21:31] <laguz> bye [21:31] <tigertoes> bye :)