Stendhal Development Meeting 2010-06-20/Result Log: Difference between revisions

* There have been suggestions to tell new players about:

* laguz is going to work on the creature based approach

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= TODO =

== New dungeons ==

*[20:27] <killerm> gustaria me to propose the creation of new Dungeon with new creaturas or already known

*[20:29] <hendrikus> Do you home some ideas about that new dungeon already?

*[20:30] <blazins> We could also enlarge the map of stendhal create new regions or countries

*[20:30] <killerm> that talks about already this the creation of the new Dungeon

*[20:30] <kezman> killerm say i would like to propose some new caves or dungeons with new creatures already know

*[20:31] <hendrikus> There is a tutorial on how to add maps at http://stendhalgame.org/wiki/HowToUseTiledToCreateStendhalMaps

*[20:31] <hendrikus> And if you join #arianne ("Chat" link on http://stendhalgame.org) we can discuss that in great detail).

*[20:46] <killerm> I would propose to take into account the proposal for the creation of new places and creatures (and for players who ask where they can leveliar the areas that are not safe for them to become blocked)

*[20:48] <hendrikus> killerm, yes. We should talk about that later, because I guess that cannot be discusssed in 10 minutes.

== First steps of new players / new quests ==

*[20:32] <laguz> maybe it make sense to split the library in different scopes and add some quests to it

*[20:33] <laguz> so the players are "forced" to read them^^

*[20:33] <omero> ah, on the subject of the library

*[20:33] <laguz> yes

*[20:33] <omero> how about having the 'fetch the book' quest repeatable (sort of pizza delivery reversed)?

*[20:33] <laguz> parts for fight, world etc..or what ever

*[20:33] <omero> it would encourage travelling

*[20:33] <superkym> omero: sure, that's a nice idea, i like that

*[20:34] <hendrikus> Or we could have quests sending players into certain dungeons.

*[20:34] <superkym> the one we already have for ceryl and jynath but add more than just jynath?

*[20:34] <omero> precisely, superkym

*[20:34] <tigertoes> yes

*[20:34] <omero> more 'book holders'

*[20:35] <laguz> but the books should not be just given by the NPC

*[20:35] <laguz> the players have to move and read/look arround

*[20:35] <omero> hidden?

*[20:35] <laguz> maybe a keyword read out of the books

*[20:36] <hendrikus> In that case it may be a good idea to use something else beside books.

*[20:36] <laguz> so the player can tell it the NPC and get the book for the keyword

*[20:36] <omero> there's lots of chest that would be nice if could be opened (maybe booby trapped)

*[20:36] <hendrikus> For example let players collect runes that are hidden in the world.

*[20:36] <madmetzger> that sounds like nice idea for luring players into dungeons

*[20:37] <tigertoes> and once they have gone there, they can be considered safe areas for them?

*[20:37] <hendrikus> Of course it requires some thinking to make sure that players are sent to dungeons approriate for their levels.

*[20:37] <omero> and it would make more thinkfull play instead of bash-the-monster

*[20:37] <hendrikus> yes

== New quests ==

*[20:37] <torvald> what about some nice new quest rewards?

*[20:37] <love_puppet> how about ramdom events?

*[20:37] <banki> eyah that would be nice

*[20:37] <superkym> torvald: items, or other fresh ideas?

*[20:38] <hendrikus> For example?

*[20:38] <omero> a compas which shows danger of the zone

*[20:38] <Oslsachem> like what, torvald?

*[20:38] <omero> or a termometer...

*[20:38] <love_puppet> when your playing the game you could be ramdom teleported to an area and asked to do some thing

*[20:38] <hendrikus> omero, we need a good way to calcualte "danger of a zone" automatically. There was some talking about that earlier today.

*[20:38] <torvald> well, for example a bank book, where you can see all your bank accounts. saves you from making screen shots

*[20:39] <tigertoes> great idea

*[20:39] <banki> or a mount for faste travling?

*[20:39] <superkym> hmmm but i try to avoid things which actually make the game rather too easy

*[20:39] <hendrikus> love_puppet at a random time? Or to a random place when doing something like using an orb?

*[20:39] <love_puppet> just ramdom

*[20:39] <omero> how about a 'cheque' you can spend at a one of the seller npc?

*[20:39] <superkym> being able to remember where you put things or come up with your own organisation system, is a challenge i like

*[20:39] <superkym> like in real life.

*[20:39] <love_puppet> it was on a nother game to get peple who where botting

*[20:40] <love_puppet> but for the peoople at thare computer it was good

*[20:40] <superkym> it could be a good quest reward but maybe not as an item you *always* keep

*[20:40] <torvald> in real life you have bank books ;-)

*[20:40] <love_puppet> money items just good thing for doing simple stuff

*[20:40] <love_puppet> like killing a rat

*[20:40] <hendrikus> Sounds rather anoying to me when you are traveling with a group of friends and random people disapear.

*[20:40] <superkym> torvald: oops, i am not organised enough in real life :P

*[20:40] <love_puppet> some thing any player could do

*[20:40] <laguz> couldnt we add the option to buy more space for the chests?

*[20:40] <superkym> laguz, we are (slowly) working on containers

*[20:41] <superkym> so that you can buy or get rewarded a bag, a box, etc

*[20:41] <kezman> in areas dangerous to level up marked for color on the map

*[20:41] <love_puppet> but it kept u at your computer cus if u dident complete it in the time amount u where sent back to a ramdom area (a town) and u didenty ger the items

*[20:41] <kezman> also in caves ?

*[20:41] <laguz> ok

*[20:41] <hendrikus> You already get more space as you grow stronger and get access to banks in more cities.

*[20:41] <love_puppet> but it was worth it

*[20:41] <superkym> Indeed. You'd be surprised how many players don't seem to use their ados chests or the zara house chest at all!

*[20:41] <love_puppet> the last one that happenden to be i was asked to open the blue chest

*[20:42] <love_puppet> and i grew 2 lvls

*[20:42] <madmetzger> i think most players are too lazy to walk there or spend scrolls for it

*[20:42] <omero> there's a chest in zara's house?!

*[20:42] <love_puppet> and when u where done u where sent right back to where u where

*[20:42] <superkym> oops, i should not be a spoiler.

*[20:42] <Oslsachem> in real life people don't want to have many accounts either for basically the same purpose

*[20:42] <omero> lol

*[20:42] <tigertoes> :)

*[20:42] <love_puppet> as the tasks dident take long at all to complete

*[20:42] <torvald> another thing would be to include information from the web site. as for example a creature lexicon, where you can see drops and their likelyhood by clicking on a creature

*[20:43] <laguz> to buy space for semos chest is a good reason to take much of the players money^^

*[20:43] hendrikus has bank accounts at two different banks.

*[20:43] <hendrikus> in real life.

*[20:43] <superkym> i think that changing the size of the chest like that mid-game, mid-player life, would be hard.

*[20:43] <hendrikus> Yes.

*[20:44] <tigertoes> could be something like the locked box thing in banks

*[20:44] <superkym> but you can buy a large box to store items

*[20:44] <superkym> and that can be put in a chest.

*[20:44] <hendrikus> That sounds strange.

*[20:44] <superkym> this is a feature we are working on and just need a little help to complete

*[20:44] <torvald> afolder for scrolls would be nice too

*[20:44] <superkym> oh, ok.

*[20:45] <omero> ah, but wouldn't be nice to have a chest in spots like dungeons? sort of secret place (beside the vault)

*[20:45] <kezman> yes :D

*[20:45] <love_puppet> i was think mabey pets could have bag spaces on them

*[20:45] <superkym> omero: i am not sure why semos bank merchants would themselves put a chest there

*[20:45] <Oslsachem> having portable bags and having bags represented as physical items is interesting

*[20:45] <omero> the spots don't ned to be advertized... not obvious to find

*[20:46] <superkym> omero: maybe just storage spaces under a stone, say, but open to all, not private. i think that storyteller suggested something very similar

*[20:46] <kezman> is like chest in cave but make quest first before using

*[20:46] <superkym> i like that idea, of hideyholes. but again it needs some work.

*[20:46] <Oslsachem> it would be nice that the player was able to carry her chest from the bank to her house for example

*[20:47] <superkym> i cannot imagine a bank chest in a dungeon in real life.

*[20:47] <omero> but a pot, a sack... a smal cache of things for planned trips to lower levels

*[20:47] <storyteller> Well, to the webside thing: In my opinion the webside should be made more attractive, also to be made interactive to use by the way while playing

*[20:47] <omero> you have to build up a reserve there...

*[20:47] <Oslsachem> it's just a chest. The bank label is due to the place it is.

*[20:48] <Oslsachem> (where)

*[20:48] <storyteller> Okay

*[20:49] <laguz> i would not add chest to the worls that are bound to a bank

*[20:49] <hendrikus> Can we go to the next topic?

*[20:49] <superkym> We will summarise all these chest and bag and storage ideas on the meeting page

*[20:49] <laguz> players have to leave the dungeons

*[20:49] <superkym> So yes, I think go on, as these ideas wil not be forgotten but they need more thought.

*[20:49] <kezman> area to trade is need in ados bank

*[20:49] <superkym> kezman: noted.

*[20:49] <hendrikus> In the next version there will be a change to the way accounts are handled

*[20:50] <hendrikus> Currently an account has exactly one character.

*[20:50] <hendrikus> So I have two accounts: hendrikus and hendrik.

*[20:50] <hendrikus> (In fact, I have 15 accounts on various test servers.)

*[20:51] <hendrikus> In the next version it will be possible to have multiple characters in one account.

*[20:51] <killerm> exelent

*[20:51] <omero> hey this is a nice new featyure

*[20:51] <hendrikus> So I can login as account "hendrikus" and then I can select the characters "hendrik" or "hendrikus".

*[20:51] <storyteller> can you put your old characters to one account then?

*[20:51] <tigertoes> will only one be playable at a time?

*[20:51] <hendrikus> storyteller, yes, there will be a function which can merge old accounts.

*[20:51] <storyteller> Okay

*[20:52] <moonligth> :)

*[20:52] <hendrikus> No, i can login "hendrik" and "hendrikus" at the same time.

*[20:52] <superkym> tigertoes, no

*[20:52] <tigertoes> ok

*[20:52] <Oslsachem> will fast user switching be feasible in the future?

*[20:52] <hendrikus> The reason behind this is to make the account-dropdown list less crowded.

*[20:53] <storyteller> Ah, what I wanted to mention... What is about this reconnect- thing?

*[20:53] <hendrikus> And there will be a new page variant of on the hall of fame:

*[20:53] <hendrikus> "Me and my friends".

*[20:53] <storyteller> Some minutes ago I lost connection for 10 seconds or so

*[20:53] <superkym> Can we please listen to what is already possible and planned and even coded, first?

*[20:53] <hendrikus> If someone wants to work on reconnect, feel free to do so.

*[20:53] <superkym> Then add ideas later>

*[20:54] <storyteller> Okay, Kym

*[20:54] <hendrikus> So in the next version, after logging in, there will be a dialog to chose one of your characters.

*[20:55] <hendrikus> You can go to the website and merge your accounts there.

*[20:55] <tigertoes> is this a personal choice kind of thing?

*[20:55] <Oslsachem> what password will prevail?

*[20:55] <tigertoes> ie, if i wish to keep all my accounts separate, can i?

*[20:55] <hendrikus> It will be possible to play multiple characters at the same time. So you can idle in bank with one character and fight with another.

*[20:55] <hendrikus> tigertoes, yes you can.

*[20:55] <superkym> tigertoes, there is no obligation to do it

*[20:56] <tigertoes> ok

*[20:56] <superkym> but you will see there will be advantages, i think

*[20:56] <hendrikus> tigertoes, if you do nothing, they will be kept seperate. If you want to merge them, you have to get active.

*[20:56] <killerm> I wonder players can use two at once or just one at a time

*[20:56] <axelf> less passwords to remember is a great advantage i think

*[20:56] <superkym> killerm: they can use two at once

*[20:56] <tigertoes> :)

*[20:57] <hendrikus> The webpage on http://stendhalgame.org for account merging, will ask you to login into one account. Then it will ask you for username and password of the account to merge in.

*[20:57] <hendrikus> The username/password of the first account will stay, Oslsachem.

*[20:57] <tigertoes> so this can be abused by those who have already exchanged passwords :(

*[20:57] <hendrikus> Of course the page is not up yet, we will publish it after the next release.

*[20:58] <tigertoes> causing support issues

*[20:58] <superkym> tigertoes, we have thought of this, and that we need to store old values

*[20:58] <hendrikus> Passwort sharing is forbidden anyway and there is a high risk to get a permanent ban.

*[20:58] <superkym> Indeed. If you did shared passwords your problems are already very big.

*[20:58] <tigertoes> i know, just making that statement for public

*[20:58] <hendrikus> Server Admins will be able to unmerge accounts.

*[20:59] <hendrikus> But I doubt that there will be a huge demand.

*[20:59] <hendrikus> If someone is password sharing and the other person wants to exploit that, he can simple take all items. I mean this has already happend in the past.

*[20:59] <hendrikus> So there is no new risk with account merging.

*[20:59] <tigertoes> true

*[20:59] <omero> is it possible to change password?

*[21:00] <hendrikus> Yes.

*[21:00] <love_puppet> yes on the website

*[21:00] <superkym> I think that may be answered in our faq, can you type /faq ?

*[21:00] <Oslsachem> well... if you used different passwords for each character before, now you're a bit more vulnerable

*[21:00] <hendrikus> On http://stendhalgame.org there is a "login" link in the upper right hand corner.

*[21:00] <blazins> because it is prohibited from sharing passwords?

*[21:00] <hendrikus> Oslsachem you can keep them seperated.

*[21:00] <Oslsachem> a player who somehow gets your password can loot all your characters

*[21:01] <storyteller> This login button should be made a little bit more eye-catching

*[21:01] <omero> yep

*[21:01] <superkym> blazins, it is prohibited to share passwords for a number of reasons. I will try to list some

*[21:01] <omero> never noticed

*[21:01] <tigertoes> also, we should have translations about password sharing

*[21:01] <superkym> blazins, one is that it is very unfair to other players if you let other people make progress on your account.

*[21:01] <tigertoes> that way we know it is in a language that the players understand

*[21:01] <superkym> blazins, that means you didn't make your own progress, someone else did.

*[21:01] <storyteller> I would prefer it in over the "Play now" and over the "Download" button

*[21:01] <killerm> i has one question?

*[21:02] <killerm> as people are supposed to get my password if I have ever given there is some way?

*[21:02] <Oslsachem> it is interesting to translate all the rules, tigertoes

*[21:02] <superkym> balzins, another is that sharing passwords might seem 'ok' between friends, to the friends. but things can turn bad. the friends can steal items from each other and then it make sa support problem when they complain.

*[21:02] <tigertoes> all rules would be good, but upassword sharing is very critical

*[21:02] <superkym> blazins, it has wasted a lot of time. you should never trust anyone with your password.

*[21:02] <hendrikus> Well, it should be obvious to everyone that you don't give your passwords away.

*[21:03] <blazins> but if there is because they trust

== Translating rules ==

*[21:03] <superkym> yes, to be honest isn't it the first rule of internet use?

*[21:03] <tigertoes> i agree hendrikus, but not everyone agrees, there are many cultures here, not all agree

*[21:03] <superkym> for me it is 'ingrained' just like 'don't touch this hot pan'

*[21:03] <superkym> tigertoes, can you help with translation?

*[21:03] <tigertoes> i know english only

*[21:03] <Oslsachem> how about internationalization? it is a great hurdle for increasing our userbase and sth that will need to be dealt with sooner or later.

*[21:03] <omero> I can help translating the rules in italian

*[21:03] <hendrikus> Oh? No foreign language?!

*[21:03] <superkym> tigertoes, i think oslachem already did a spanish translation of the rules. if you can recruit others to help that is fine.

*[21:03] <tigertoes> nope

*[21:04] <tigertoes> i do know a few different persons of other cultures, i might try

*[21:04] <hendrikus> thank you.

*[21:04] <killerm> hey hendrik

*[21:04] <killerm> in a very short time I change of state are therefore my IP `there is not any problem CAMVIA

*[21:04] <tigertoes> ok

*[21:05] <Oslsachem> I can give it a try to portuguese, french or italian with the help of a translator :)

*[21:05] <hendrikus> But I like to ask for some testers.

*[21:05] <hendrikus> This is not related to the account merging thing.

*[21:05] <hendrikus> https://stendhalgame.org/account/mycharacters.html

*[21:06] <hendrikus> If you go there and login, you will see a list of your characters. Currently excatly one obviously.

*[21:06] <hendrikus> Please click on it and wait a bit.

*[21:06] <hendrikus> Does starting the game work for you?

*[21:07] <hendrikus> You don't have to try it now, but please gives some feedback whether it worked or what errors your got.

*[21:07] <love_puppet> it has asked me to redownload the game

*[21:07] <hendrikus> Using /support for example.

*[21:07] <tigertoes> very nice :)

*[21:07] <love_puppet> how can u add char to it?

*[21:07] <hendrikus> If you are not using webstart, it will ask you to dowload on the first try.

*[21:07] <axelf> it works ;)

*[21:07] <hendrikus> If you try it again later, it should not download again.

*[21:08] <kiheru> love_puppet: merged characters will appear there

*[21:08] <hendrikus> Adding chars will be possible after the next version.

*[21:08] <hendrikus> Not now, because the current version cannot handle that.

*[21:08] <superkym> so here is maybe one advantage to merging your characters

*[21:09] <hendrikus> That is a beta test.

*[21:09] <hendrikus> So please don't tell it new players just yet.

*[21:11] <axelf> hendrik: there seems to be a littlte difference between login using this character page and the old webstart: now i see only the coffee icon instead of the stendhal logo icon

*[21:11] <tigertoes> i am on through that site and now i have no box of text

*[21:13] <tigertoes> sorry, i guess i will try that again and write bug rpt

* So, anyone who has a blog, or some site they can post links, to tell their friends what they are doing, do please feel free to share about Stendhal :)

*[21:14] <tigertoes> i wanted to say something about the advertsing for new playuers, i saw you said something kym but didnt see what

*[21:16] <superkym> tigertoes, it was a comment that 'word of mouth' seems to be really successful, So to advertise to more people I would ask that people who have blogs or other sites that they can post text or oi links on would share the game :)

*[21:16] <tigertoes> oh, i was gonna say something on facebook and try to encourage them to try as there are so many problems now with facebook and their apps

*[21:17] <tigertoes> but how many players can be on at once?

*[21:17] <superkym> tigertoes: don't worry about player number limits.

*[21:18] <hendrikus> stendhalgame.org is a real server in a real data center.

*[21:19] <hendrikus> It can handle a lot more players and traffic than all the other Stendhal clone server hosted on home internet connections.

== Translating game ==

*[21:11] <Oslsachem> what's the position about internationalization?

*[21:12] <superkym> Oslsachem, sorry, I do not know what you mean.

*[21:12] <Oslsachem> because for many players, especially the younger ones, the english is a big hurdle

*[21:12] <hendrikus> We have started to translate the introduction in various languaes.

*[21:12] <hendrikus> A big thank you to every one who worked on that.

*[21:13] <hendrikus> If you know other languages, please help with that.

*[21:13] <hendrikus> Either by improving already existing translations or adding new ones.

*[21:14] <hendrikus> For example the text below the screenshots are still open on some transaltions.

*[21:14] <Oslsachem> I wonder if having internationalization for the game is feasible

*[21:15] <hendrikus> For the complete game, it is not.

*[21:15] <Oslsachem> or if the grammar system is a problem

*[21:15] <superkym> Oslsacheam, oh, isn't that against what you usually cite as a main rule for stendhal?

*[21:15] <superkym> That all players should see the same thing?

*[21:15] <hendrikus> No, the problem is that it is a huge amount of work. And everyone who tried has given up after a couple of weeks.

*[21:16] <hendrikus> No -> the grammar is not the issue.

*[21:16] <Oslsachem> of course, kym. But in real life we also see the same things and people can speak with customers in different languages

*[21:16] <Oslsachem> I am not afraid of the work

*[21:21] <Oslsachem> the only worry I have is that the internationalization makes the code more cumbersome, quests for example.

*[21:22] <superkym> I have no idea up front how that would be done or maintained.

*[21:22] <hendrikus> We had a translation system in place already.

*[21:22] <hendrikus> But since nobody ever completed 5%, i removed it.

*[21:22] <hendrikus> I promised to readd it, if there is at least 75% translated.

*[21:23] <hendrikus> But that will probably take half a year of full time work.

*[21:23] <Oslsachem> ok, are the instructions for translating available somewhere?

*[21:23] <Oslsachem> oh

*[21:23] <Oslsachem> so much text?

*[21:23] <hendrikus> Oslsachem, i can look for it after the meeting.

*[21:24] <Oslsachem> anyway, it would need the commitment of people who writes new content to keep it going.

*[21:24] <superkym> Commitment?

*[21:24] <hendrikus> I cannot provide a spanish translation for stuff I add.

*[21:25] <superkym> What if the people who write new content do not speak every translated language?

*[21:25] <Oslsachem> I mean writing the code using templates or whatever

*[21:25] <hendrikus> That is as easy as putting _( and ) around every string.

*[21:26] <Oslsachem> that's the difficult part?

*[21:26] <hendrikus> The difficult part is to stay commited to translate it.

*[21:27] <tigertoes> exactly

*[21:27] <hendrikus> As I said all people gave up after a couple of weeks.

*[21:27] <Oslsachem> the whole tranlation is stored in a single file then?

*[21:28] <hendrikus> Oslsachem we should discuss that at the next meeting or in #arianne.

*[21:28] <Oslsachem> ok, I'll give it a try and perhaps other will follow in other languages.

*[21:28] <hendrikus> I like to thank everyone for attending.

*[21:29] <hendrikus> We will put up a chatlog and a summary on the wiki and put a link on http://stendhalgame.org

*[21:29] <hendrikus> Feel free to join us in #arianne at any time.

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