Stendhal Development Meeting 2009-11-22/Result Log/Music: Difference between revisions

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{{Navigation for Stendhal Top|Developing}}
{{TODO|Creation of this page is in progress. This is not a real chat log. Comments have been removed, sorted and edited.}}
{{Navigation for Stendhal Developers}}
{{Stendhal Development Meeting 2009-11-22}}
{{Stendhal Development Meeting 2009-11-22}}

__TOC__
__TOC__


* there's a text on sound and music at [[Stendhal Sound]]
* humana: hey... I want more sound in this game, maybe music!... I thought about a new house... for example a jazz house... there are some musicians (is that the right word) which are playing music... you can do there for example a new quest too ... how do you think about this?
* wiki page is quite old and needs to be updated
* humana: maybe first just one place for music ... it's difficult to write songs for all places in stendhal...
{{clear}}
* hendrik: And too many other things to work on.
* vomit: there's a text in the wiki about this
* humana: what kind of music?
* humana: I can do maybe something with cheatdomi
* vomit: chilling tunes
* humana: I like it if there is a jazz house!
* storyteller: humana, I already produced a four music tracks for Stendhal :)
* vomit: maybe ambient or classic with a touch of medieval tunes
* humana: it's difficult to write something for all places vomit
* humana: you want for dungeons for example other music
* humana: storyteller? where can I hear this music?
* storyteller: it is added to the patches tracker
* storyteller: it´s something for ambient/atmosphere
* miasma: we could take midi-files.
* superkym: storyteller's music is really good. but adding to the game it is another thing
* storyteller: I produced it myself
* humana: okay teller I will hear it
* humana: kymi? what do you mean?
* superkym: pepsz, you can write this already
* plassy: maybe we can find some music at jamendo.com... it's creative common
* humana: I like some music for your heart
* humana: like blues and jazz

== Types of Music ==
== Types of Music ==

* main goal of music is to add ambient/atmosphere
* music should be played adaptively according to the place and situation, to give it more value.
** storyteller made some great examples of this, see patch tracker
** some are very pretty and quiet and suitable for outdoors, a meadow
** some are dark and scary like for a dungeon
** a jazz room was suggested, does it fit into the world?
* need to compromise between file size and loops being long enough not to get monotonic
* files provided and [http://arianne.cvs.sf.net/viewvc/arianne/stendhal/data/music/ committed to CVS]
** [http://arianne.cvs.sf.net/viewvc/*checkout*/arianne/stendhal/data/music/Deep_Forest.ogg Deep_Forest.ogg] (This music by storyteller from patch 2665588 is ideal for outdoors as it has bir..., 2009)
** [http://arianne.cvs.sf.net/viewvc/*checkout*/arianne/stendhal/data/music/Demiurgo_ANewHomeland.ogg Demiurgo_ANewHomeland.ogg] (Added final version of demiurgos song, 2006 )
** [http://arianne.cvs.sf.net/viewvc/*checkout*/arianne/stendhal/data/music/Sacred_Moments.ogg Sacred_Moments.ogg] (This piece of music by storyteller from patch 2672345 has a majestic and serious..., 2009)
** [http://arianne.cvs.sf.net/viewvc/*checkout*/arianne/stendhal/data/music/The_Forsaken_Mine.ogg The_Forsaken_Mine.ogg] (This is written by storyteller, atmospheric background music ideal for caves or ..., 2009)
** [http://arianne.cvs.sf.net/viewvc/*checkout*/arianne/stendhal/data/music/The_Old_Tavern.ogg The_Old_Tavern.ogg] (This is written by storyteller, and he comments that ' This background soundtrac..., 2009)


== File Format ==
== File Format ==
* vomit: in the wiki stood something about ogg
* vomit: would flac do it either?
* vomit: i have one ambient track but it's in mp3
* miasma: midi-files can be repeated the whole time aren't so big files and you can make them easy at home
* blackfinix: convert it to ogg
* blackfinix: ogg is open source
* blackfinix: flac is open source
* kiheru: with flac we would get rather large download sizes
* miasma: i'm for midi-files.
* vomit: flac would just be the source
* superkym: i'm pretty sure the wiki says what specifications we have, doesn't it say oggs?
* vomit: you could downsample it then for your own desired size
* blackfinix: a midi composition would work miasma. but i am not sure if he game can handle them
* plassy: midi and linux isn't a good idea
* humana: midi...
* blackfinix: if it was midi it would definitely have a retro sound to the game :)
* vomit: i think it should be ogg
* storyteller: do you think about 8-bit music?
* blackfinix: yes ogg is best bet
* storyteller: retro style? ;)
* plassy: full ack to ogg
* miasma: i think a retro touch like lufia or secret of mana or sth. is not bad for a game like these
* storyteller: thats right miasma
* vomit: but midis are tooooo oldschool
* miasma: i could try to make midi-files. thanks to guitar pro :D
* tigertoes: i dont think you can get the range in midi files as you can in ogg


* mp3 is problematic
== Other ==
* midi
** midi-files can be repeated the whole time aren't so big files and you can make them easy at home
** midi and linux may be a problem
** midi would have a retro touch, like lufia or secret of mana or sth.
* ogg
** midi files can be converted
** prefered by many people
** cannot get the range in midi files as you can in ogg


== Controlling the music ==
* storyteller: no, I think we should not take music from anywhere...
* humana: storryteller what do you mean?
* plassy: what do you mean with anywhere?
* storyteller: well, to take it from any other source... Because of the copyright etc
* plassy: its a game
* humana: yes and a game has a background music
* humana: you can mute the music
* pepsz: more for example the people how you ignore can see why you ignore hem when try speak with you
* Oslsachem: music usually adds atmosphere to the game but not gameplay
* humana: so I don't know now... what do you think about a Blues or Jazz house?


* music is played by client
* on commands provided by the server
* music should depended on zone, "atmosphere" property of zone that is sent to client
* synchronization
** there is an unwritten rule that all the players should see the same thing
** problem: player A enters a zone, the music starts to play, player B enters 30 seconds later. For them to hear the same thing the music for player B has to start 30 seconds in
** the music should fade in, there is no need to hear it from the start
** music is not really part of the game world so it may be okay to start at the beginning every time, to make coding simpler for now
* other triggers
** there might be special music during a fight against a very strong monsters
** it was suggested that music may be faster when low on health


== Multiple programs with music ==
* vomit: and there should be a soundtrack file, which you are able to download extra
* blackfinix: vomit yes ... like the sound files now
* superkym: adding music would still be rather a major change


* music should only be played if the Stendhal client is the active window
* so when you have two clients open (for example while testing) you don't get a mess
* a workaround would be to mute one client manually.
* for example when the other music source is not related to Stendhal


== Shipping Music Files ==
* blackfinix: ok we can put that off for now, or create a ccommittee to look into it
* humana: who wrote music for stendhal already?
* superkym: it's not a minor thing which we can just make happen, it's a major thing needed, as far as i remember
* vomit: atmospheric sounds in ogg would be better
* miasma: but not your ambient music, vomit. i think ulthar isn't a good choice. in dreamscape maybe ;)
* Oslsachem: music should be played adaptively according to the place and situation, to give it more value.
* plassy: whats the problem with music... there is support for sound in java... or am I wrong?
* samson: I don't care about music / sounds as long as I can switch them off
* blackfinix: yes samson.
* plassy: so who did the original sound stuff?


* the music files should be shipped with the client, just like tiles and images are, but as a separate package
== Triggering Background Music ==
* streaming is considered to consume too much resources like bandwidth, streaming is not required for synchronizing
* plan:
*# Make /mute persistent ({{tracker|2880973}}).
*# include the sound files in stendhal-0.xx.zip (it made sense to have an extra download years ago when the music was twice as large as the client, but that is not true anymore)
*# include the music files in stendhal-FULL-0.xx.zip


== Other ==
* Oslsachem: there's the question whether music should be played individually for each player or whether it should be associated with the zone...
* hendrik: There should be different music for cities, forest, dungeons.
* hendrik: So it would be zone depended.
* hendrik: We already have some wind like sounds in 0_semos_village_w, but that is very basic.
* plassy: music have to add atmosphere
* superkym: yes and storyteller's music are great examples of this
* storyteller: Thanks very much :)
* superkym: some are very pretty and quiet and suitable for outdoors, a meadow
* superkym: some are dark and scary like for a dungeon

* Oslsachem: but that means that when a player enters a zone the music is not played from the beginning
* superkym: also he made them fairly small file which is important as we don't want to force large downloads, and they loop, too.
* yoriy: if music stay zone dependent it must not be monotonic , so probably there must be 2-3 misic themes for each zones
* blackfinix: osl that wouuld be ok though?
* hendrik: There is this problem:
* hendrik: Player One enters the zone.
* hendrik: The music starts.
* hendrik: 30 second later player Two enters the zone.
* storyteller: Then the music has to be played for every single player
* hendrik: Will he hear the music from the start? Or will it start with 30 seconds into the track?
* tigertoes: if it is a loop, wouldnt that mean it doesnt matter?
* vomit: the music should play for each player
* tigertoes: same concept for when you have music on telephone and they put you on hold
* storyteller: yes, tigertoes... for loops it doesnt matter
* love_puppet: or maybe the player 2 picks up 30s in to the track
* vomit: that should be controlled locally by the client
* plassy: the music should fade in... there is no need to hear it from the start
* hendrik: Always starting at the beginning of the file is a lot easier to code.
* plassy: except if special events arise
* yoriy: id like to have music in client instead server
* plassy: hendrik: i dont see the problem... dosn't java handle this?
* plassy: isn't there any library?
* superkym: why is it a problem if the music starts from the beginning as you enter, for each player? i think that is ok
* jesco: yes it is
* hendrik: okay, that makes things easier.
* Oslsachem: there's an unofficial rule that states that all the players should see the same things in the game though I don't know if music is really a part of the world or just the game interface because there isn't actually a musician playing it...
* kiheru: java does not handle everything. there's still a lot about the behaviour to code
* blackfinix: wouldn't all this music be very resource hungry?

* Oslsachem: you could play with the music tempo, increasing it when a player has low health
* humana: so if you want some music for some maps... I am here, I have guitar pro .. and domi have a better programm
* miasma: like the time-out music in super mario, oslsachem? ;)
* kiheru: maybe eventually osl. first we need something that works


== Multi Account Playing ==

* humana: what is if you play with 2 accounts?
* humana: you have to mute one?
* humana: otherwise maybe it sounds really strange
* hendrik: It may be a good idea to only play the music if the client is the active window.
* kiheru: you'd mute the music of one, unless you want a cacophony
* superkym: well they may not even be in the same zone humana... yes i guess you would choose to mute one or hendrik's idea
* blackfinix: but that would be the players problem if he/she choses to play more than one char

== Shipping Music Files ==


* we need to be carefully when taking music from any other sources because they may be copyrighted although marked as free
* superkym: blackfinix the music itself would be shipped with the client, just like tiles and images are
* it should be possible to switch sound/music off
* superkym: so it does not need to be sent over the network from the server. just the instruction to start playing, stop playing
* music needs quite a bit of coding, the existing sound system needs some cleanup
* kiheru: as a separate package, I'd prefer
* there are ogg files provided to test with, so the missing computer code is the show stopper
* tigertoes: i agree to the separate package... if someone wants music, they can download it separately
* superkym: or a FULL client and a client without sounds
* Oslsachem: for all the players to listen to the music synchronously, it should be streamed from the server and not stored in the client I guess...
* superkym: like we already have
* plassy: no... no stream
* superkym: Oslsachem i'm really not sure that's necessary
* kiheru: no reason to stream. waste of bandwidth
* hendrik: i suggest these steps: 1. Make mute persitent, 2. include the sound files in stendhal-0..., 3. include the music files in stendhal-FULL-0...
* kiheru: just have a "atmosphere" property for the zones that's send to the client
* superkym: if you really wanted to make it start at the correct place you'd send what moment in the track to start from but not stream


== Volunteers ==
== Volunteers ==


* storyteller and miasma volunteered to do the music
* hendrik: does someone volunteer?
* hendrik volunteered to fix /mute and include the sound files into the normal stendhal-0.xx.zip download, so that the music files can go into stendhal-FULL-0.xx.zip
* superkym: btw osl you're outside my window. can you come to the table?
* hendrik: I will fix the /mute thingy.
* plassy volunteered to do the java coding
* it may be a good idea to join [http://stendhal.game-host.org/?id=content/game/chat #arianne] on irc freenode. Please ask there if you have any questions or issues.
* taron: Ronaldo!!!
* superkym: thanks, hendrik
* storyteller: volunteer for what? ;)
* humana: oslachem?
* blackfinix: to lead the music commitee?
* hendrik: for creating music files, for writing to code to use them.
* kiheru: cI donburied under all my tasks already :-(
* storyteller: I´ll produce the music :)
* hendrik: I think it may be a good idea to just start with two small files for testing, not putting to much time into it until the code works.
* plassy: maybi i can help with the music programming
* plassy: i only have to look a bit in the java docs
* kiheru: the code is the critical part for now, so help for that is very welcome :-)
* storyteller: Okay, Miasma and I do the music :)
* hendrik: plassy, it may be a good idea to join [http://stendhal.game-host.org/?id=content/game/chat #arianne] on irc freenode. Please ask there if you have any questions or need some pointing around the Stendhal source code.

Latest revision as of 03:44, 1 March 2010


  • there's a text on sound and music at Stendhal Sound
  • wiki page is quite old and needs to be updated


Types of Music

  • main goal of music is to add ambient/atmosphere
  • music should be played adaptively according to the place and situation, to give it more value.
    • storyteller made some great examples of this, see patch tracker
    • some are very pretty and quiet and suitable for outdoors, a meadow
    • some are dark and scary like for a dungeon
    • a jazz room was suggested, does it fit into the world?
  • need to compromise between file size and loops being long enough not to get monotonic
  • files provided and committed to CVS
    • Deep_Forest.ogg (This music by storyteller from patch 2665588 is ideal for outdoors as it has bir..., 2009)
    • Demiurgo_ANewHomeland.ogg (Added final version of demiurgos song, 2006 )
    • Sacred_Moments.ogg (This piece of music by storyteller from patch 2672345 has a majestic and serious..., 2009)
    • The_Forsaken_Mine.ogg (This is written by storyteller, atmospheric background music ideal for caves or ..., 2009)
    • The_Old_Tavern.ogg (This is written by storyteller, and he comments that ' This background soundtrac..., 2009)

File Format

  • mp3 is problematic
  • midi
    • midi-files can be repeated the whole time aren't so big files and you can make them easy at home
    • midi and linux may be a problem
    • midi would have a retro touch, like lufia or secret of mana or sth.
  • ogg
    • midi files can be converted
    • prefered by many people
    • cannot get the range in midi files as you can in ogg

Controlling the music

  • music is played by client
  • on commands provided by the server
  • music should depended on zone, "atmosphere" property of zone that is sent to client
  • synchronization
    • there is an unwritten rule that all the players should see the same thing
    • problem: player A enters a zone, the music starts to play, player B enters 30 seconds later. For them to hear the same thing the music for player B has to start 30 seconds in
    • the music should fade in, there is no need to hear it from the start
    • music is not really part of the game world so it may be okay to start at the beginning every time, to make coding simpler for now
  • other triggers
    • there might be special music during a fight against a very strong monsters
    • it was suggested that music may be faster when low on health

Multiple programs with music

  • music should only be played if the Stendhal client is the active window
  • so when you have two clients open (for example while testing) you don't get a mess
  • a workaround would be to mute one client manually.
  • for example when the other music source is not related to Stendhal

Shipping Music Files

  • the music files should be shipped with the client, just like tiles and images are, but as a separate package
  • streaming is considered to consume too much resources like bandwidth, streaming is not required for synchronizing
  • plan:
    1. Make /mute persistent (#2880973).
    2. include the sound files in stendhal-0.xx.zip (it made sense to have an extra download years ago when the music was twice as large as the client, but that is not true anymore)
    3. include the music files in stendhal-FULL-0.xx.zip

Other

  • we need to be carefully when taking music from any other sources because they may be copyrighted although marked as free
  • it should be possible to switch sound/music off
  • music needs quite a bit of coding, the existing sound system needs some cleanup
  • there are ogg files provided to test with, so the missing computer code is the show stopper

Volunteers

  • storyteller and miasma volunteered to do the music
  • hendrik volunteered to fix /mute and include the sound files into the normal stendhal-0.xx.zip download, so that the music files can go into stendhal-FULL-0.xx.zip
  • plassy volunteered to do the java coding
  • it may be a good idea to join #arianne on irc freenode. Please ask there if you have any questions or issues.
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