Stendhal Development Meeting 2009-11-22/Result Log/Music: Difference between revisions

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{{Navigation for Stendhal Top|Developing}}
{{TODO|Creation of this page is in progress. This is not a real chat log. Comments have been removed, sorted and edited.}}
{{Navigation for Stendhal Developers}}
{{Stendhal Development Meeting 2009-11-22}}
{{Stendhal Development Meeting 2009-11-22}}
__TOC__


* there's a text on sound and music at [[Stendhal Sound]]
* storyteller: but what if there is for example music added some time? Then you need "/sound mute on" and "/music mute on"
* wiki page is quite old and needs to be updated
* humana: hey... I want more sound in this game, maybe music!... I thought about a new house... for example a jazz house... there are some musicians (is that the right word) which are playing music... you can do there for example a new quest too ... how do you think about this?
{{clear}}
* humana: maybe first just one place for music ... it's difficult to write songs for all places in stendhal...
== Types of Music ==
* vomit: humana u can compose music for the game and sent it to the developers
* hendrik: And too many other things to work on.
* vomit: there's a text in the wiki about this
* humana: what kind of music?
* plassy: you have to get the music from anywhere...
* humana: I can do maybe something with cheatdomi
* vomit: chilling tunes
* humana: I like it if there is a jazz house!
* storyteller: humana, I already produced a four music tracks for Stendhal :)
* vomit: maybe ambient
* vomit: or classic with a touch of medieval tunes
* humana: it's difficult to write something for all places vomit
* humana: you want for dungeons for example other music
* humana: storyteller? where can I hear this music?
* vomit: i allways think about the soundtrack of "elder scrolls"
* storyteller: it is added to the patches tracker
* hendrik: Please keep in mind that this is a free game. Which means that any music needs to be free and "with source". So an mp3 is not good.
* yoriy: its me who want it, osl
* storyteller: it´s something for ambiet/atmosphere
* miasma: we could take midi-files.
* superkym: storyteller's music is really good. but adding to the game it is another thing
* vomit: in the wiki stood something about ogg
* storyteller: I produced it myself
* pepsz: i thnk when you ignore somebody you can write the motive for example /ignore pepzs (motive)
* porl: it will suck whan im 597
* vomit: would flac do it either?
* humana: okay teller I will hear it
* blackfinix: hmm ambient music is not hard to compose :) .... or even automated music ...
* humana: kymi? what do you mean?
* superkym: pepsz, you can write this already
* porl: hi
* love_puppet: you have a vary long time befor u get that far
* vomit: i have one ambienttrack
* love_puppet: like long
* vomit: but it's in mp3
* plassy: maybe we can find some music at jamendo.com... ist creative common
* miasma: midi-files can be repeated the whole time aren't so big files and you can make them easy at home
* humana: I like some music for your heart
* humana: like blues and jazz
* blackfinix: convert it to ogg
* pepsz: wow i dont know these =S
* superkym: pepsz please type /help and you will see what to do to add the reason. and when you type /ignore alone, you see who you have ignored and for what reason
* blackfinix: ogg is open source
* porl: please
* porl: make no max lvl
* storyteller: no, I think we should not take music from anywhere...
* vomit: would flac do it, too?
* blackfinix: yes flac is open source
* humana: storryteller what do you mean?
* porl: if someone wants muc«sic, get itunes, and hear it!
* plassy: what do you mean with anywhere?
* kiheru: with flac we would get rather large download sizes
* miasma: i'm for midi-files.
* storyteller: well, to take it from any other source... Because of the copyright etc
* plassy: its a game
* vomit: flac would just be the source
* humana: porl there are guys who want music and guys which say it is not important
* porl: get itunes
* superkym: i'm pretty sure the wiki says what specifications we have, doesn't it say oggs?
* porl: im hearing music right now
* humana: yes and a game has a background music
* humana: you can mute the music
* vomit: you could downsample it then for your own desired size
* pepsz: more for example the people how you ignore can see why you ignore hem when try speak with you
* porl: no max lvl
* Oslsachem: music usually adds atmosphere to the game but not gameplay
* blackfinix: a midi composition would work miasma. but im not sure if he game can handle them
* humana: so I don't know now... what do you think about a Blues or Jazz house?
* plassy: midi and linux istnt a good idea
* humana: midi...
* blackfinix: if it was midi it would definitely have a retro sound to the game :)
* yoriy: what about next ideas
* Oslsachem: porl, the problem of levelling undefinedly is that if creature don't level together with you, you end up without challenges.
* vomit: i think it should be ogg
* sentinel: 7who
* storyteller: do you think about 8-bit music?
* matheus: open
* Oslsachem: undefinitely
* blackfinix: yes ogg is best bet
* storyteller: retro style? ;)
* vomit: and there should be a soundtrack file, which you are able to download extra
* kezman: hi all
* plassy: full ack to ogg
* miasma: i think a retro touch like lufia or secret of mana or sth. is not bad for a game like these
* blackfinix: vomit yes ... like the sound files now
* storyteller: thats right miasma
* vomit: yes
* blackfinix: yes
* superkym: adding music woudl still be rather a major change
* vomit: but midis are tooooo oldschool
* sentinel: missing a shop for armors
* blackfinix: ok we can put that off for now, or create a ccommittee to look into it
* humana: who wrote music for stendhal already?
* superkym: it's not a minor thing which we can just make happen, it's a major thing needed, as far as i remember
* vomit: atmospheric sounds in ogg would be better
* miasma: but not your ambient music, vomit. i think ulthar isn't a good choice. in dreamscape maybe ;)
* Oslsachem: music should be played adaptively according to the place and situation, to give it more value.
* plassy: whats the problem with music... there is support for sounfd in java... or im wrong?


* main goal of music is to add ambient/atmosphere
* samson: I don't care about music / sounds as long as I can switch them off
* music should be played adaptively according to the place and situation, to give it more value.
* blackfinix: yes samson.
** storyteller made some great examples of this, see patch tracker
* plassy: so who did the original sound stuff?
** some are very pretty and quiet and suitable for outdoors, a meadow
* Oslsachem: there's the question wether music should be played individually for each player or wether it should be associated with the zone...
** some are dark and scary like for a dungeon
* hendrik: There should be different music for cities, forrest, dungeons.
** a jazz room was suggested, does it fit into the world?
* hendrik: So it would be zone depended.
* need to compromise between file size and loops being long enough not to get monotonic
* plassy: music have to add atmosphere
* files provided and [http://arianne.cvs.sf.net/viewvc/arianne/stendhal/data/music/ committed to CVS]
* superkym: yes and storyteller's music are great examples of this
** [http://arianne.cvs.sf.net/viewvc/*checkout*/arianne/stendhal/data/music/Deep_Forest.ogg Deep_Forest.ogg] (This music by storyteller from patch 2665588 is ideal for outdoors as it has bir..., 2009)
* hendrik: We already have some wind like sounds in 0_semos_village_w, but that is very basic.
** [http://arianne.cvs.sf.net/viewvc/*checkout*/arianne/stendhal/data/music/Demiurgo_ANewHomeland.ogg Demiurgo_ANewHomeland.ogg] (Added final version of demiurgos song, 2006 )
* storyteller: Thanks very much :)
** [http://arianne.cvs.sf.net/viewvc/*checkout*/arianne/stendhal/data/music/Sacred_Moments.ogg Sacred_Moments.ogg] (This piece of music by storyteller from patch 2672345 has a majestic and serious..., 2009)
* superkym: some are very pretty and quiet and suitable for outdoors, a meadow
** [http://arianne.cvs.sf.net/viewvc/*checkout*/arianne/stendhal/data/music/The_Forsaken_Mine.ogg The_Forsaken_Mine.ogg] (This is written by storyteller, atmospheric background music ideal for caves or ..., 2009)
* superkym: some are dark and scary like for a dungeon
** [http://arianne.cvs.sf.net/viewvc/*checkout*/arianne/stendhal/data/music/The_Old_Tavern.ogg The_Old_Tavern.ogg] (This is written by storyteller, and he comments that ' This background soundtrac..., 2009)
* Oslsachem: but that means that when a player enters a zone the music is not played from the beginning

* superkym: also he made them fairly small file which is important as we don't want to force large downloads, and they loop, too.
== File Format ==
* yoriy: if music stay zone dependent it must not be monotonic , so probably there must be 2-3 misic themes for each zones

* blackfinix: osl that wouuld be ok though?
* mp3 is problematic
* hendrik: There is this problem:
* midi
* storyteller: hmm...
** midi-files can be repeated the whole time aren't so big files and you can make them easy at home
* hendrik: Player One enters the zone.
** midi and linux may be a problem
* hendrik: The music starts.
** midi would have a retro touch, like lufia or secret of mana or sth.
* hendrik: 30 second later player Two enters the zone.
* ogg
* blackfinix: oh i see ... yes
** midi files can be converted
* storyteller: Then the music has to be played for every single player
** prefered by many people
* hendrik: Will he hear the music from the start? Or will it start with 30 seconds into the track?
** cannot get the range in midi files as you can in ogg
* tigertoes: if it is a loop, wouldnt that mean it doesnt matter?

* vomit: the music should play for each player
== Controlling the music ==
* tigertoes: same concept for when you have music on telephone and they put you on hold

* storyteller: yes, tigertoes... for loops it doesnt matter
* music is played by client
* love_puppet: or mabey the player 2 picks up 30s in to the track
* vomit: that should be controled locally by the client
* on commands provided by the server
* plassy: the music should fade in... ther is no need to hear it from the start
* music should depended on zone, "atmosphere" property of zone that is sent to client
* synchronization
* hendrik: Always starting at the beginning of the file is a lot easier to code.
** there is an unwritten rule that all the players should see the same thing
* plassy: except if special events arise
** problem: player A enters a zone, the music starts to play, player B enters 30 seconds later. For them to hear the same thing the music for player B has to start 30 seconds in
* yoriy: id like to have music in client
** the music should fade in, there is no need to hear it from the start
* yoriy: instead server
** music is not really part of the game world so it may be okay to start at the beginning every time, to make coding simpler for now
* plassy: hendrik: i dont see the problem... dosn't java handle this?
* other triggers
* plassy: isn't there any library?
** there might be special music during a fight against a very strong monsters
* superkym: why is it a problem if the music starts from the beginning as you enter, for each player? i think that is ok
** it was suggested that music may be faster when low on health
* jesco: yes it is

* hendrik: okay, that makes things easier.
== Multiple programs with music ==
* kiheru: java does not handle everything. there's still a lot about the behaviour to code

* blackfinix: wouldn't all this music be very resource hungry?
* music should only be played if the Stendhal client is the active window
* humana: kymi? what is if you play with 2 accounts?
* so when you have two clients open (for example while testing) you don't get a mess
* humana: you have to mute one?
* a workaround would be to mute one client manually.
* Oslsachem: there's an unofficial rule that states that all the players should see the same things in the game though I don't know if music is really a part of the world or just the game interface because there isn't actually a musician playing it...
* for example when the other music source is not related to Stendhal
* humana: otherwise maybe it sounds really

* humana: strange
== Shipping Music Files ==
* hendrik: It may be a good idea to only play the music if the client is the active window.

* kiheru: you'd mute the music of one, unless you want a cacophony
* the music files should be shipped with the client, just like tiles and images are, but as a separate package
* superkym: well they may not even be in the same zone humana... yes i guess you would choose to mute one
* streaming is considered to consume too much resources like bandwidth, streaming is not required for synchronizing
* superkym: or hendrik's idea
* plan:
* blackfinix: but that would be the players problem if he/she choses to play more than one char
*# Make /mute persistent ({{tracker|2880973}}).
* humana: yes
*# include the sound files in stendhal-0.xx.zip (it made sense to have an extra download years ago when the music was twice as large as the client, but that is not true anymore)
* superkym: blackfinix the music itself would be shipped with the client, just like tiles and images are
*# include the music files in stendhal-FULL-0.xx.zip
* blackfinix: ok i see

* superkym: so it does not need to be sent over the network from the server. just the instruction to start playing, stop playing
== Other ==
* kiheru: as a separate packege, I'd prefer

* blackfinix: ok
* we need to be carefully when taking music from any other sources because they may be copyrighted although marked as free
* storyteller: yes, kym, that would be best
* it should be possible to switch sound/music off
* tigertoes: i agree to the separate package... if someone wants music, they can download it separately
* music needs quite a bit of coding, the existing sound system needs some cleanup
* superkym: or a FULL client and a clien twithout sounds
* there are ogg files provided to test with, so the missing computer code is the show stopper
* Oslsachem: for all the players to listen to the music synchronously, it should be streamed from the server and not stored in the client I guess...

* superkym: like we already have
== Volunteers ==
* plassy: no... no stream

* superkym: Oslsachem i'm really not sure that's necessary
* storyteller and miasma volunteered to do the music
* kiheru: no reason to stream. waste of bandwidht
* hendrik: kiheru, i suggest these steps: 1. Make mute persitent, 2. include the sound files in stendhal-0..., 3. include the music files in stendhal-FULL-0...
* hendrik volunteered to fix /mute and include the sound files into the normal stendhal-0.xx.zip download, so that the music files can go into stendhal-FULL-0.xx.zip
* plassy volunteered to do the java coding
* blackfinix: streaming would really eat the bandwidth
* it may be a good idea to join [http://stendhal.game-host.org/?id=content/game/chat #arianne] on irc freenode. Please ask there if you have any questions or issues.
* storyteller: yes, that´s true
* miasma: jep.
* kiheru: just have a "atmosphere" property for the zones that's send to the client
* superkym: if you really wanted to make it start at the correct place you'd send what moment in teh tarck to start from
* superkym: but not stream
* superkym: * track
* plassy: yes
* storyteller: yes
* hendrik: does someone volunteer?
* blackfinix: ok
* superkym: btw osl you're outside my window. can you come to the table?
* hendrik: I will fix the /mute thingy.
* taron: Ronaldo!!!
* superkym: thanks, hendrik
* storyteller: volunteer for what? ;)
* humana: oslachem?
* blackfinix: to lead the music commitee?
* hendrik: for creating music files, for writing to code to use them.
* kiheru: cI donburied under all my tasks already :-(
* storyteller: I´ll produce the music :)
* miasma: what about the animal masks in ados? why do they just stay 2 hours? i think the time should be altered for 2 days too
* humana: good job tigger
* tigertoes: :)
* hendrik: I think it may be a good idea to just start with two small midi files for testing, not putting to much time into it until the code works.
* Maria: humana, if you want my attention, just say hi.
* hendrik: if "midi" is the way to go.
* plassy: maybi i can help with the music programming
* storyteller: okay, btw converting to ogg isn´t a problem ;)
* superkym: plassy, that would be good
* miasma: i could try to make midi-files. thanks to guitar pro :D
* hendrik: plassy, cool.
* storyteller: ^^
* plassy: i only have to look a bit in the java docs
* hendrik: miasma, thank you.
* tigertoes: i dont think you can get the range in midi files as you can in ogg
* kiheru: the code is the critical part for now, so help for that is very welcome :-)
* storyteller: Okay, Miasma and I do the music :)
* hendrik: plassy, it may be a good idea to join arianne on irc. Pleae ask there if you have any questions or need some points around the Stendhal source code.
* Oslsachem: you could play with the music tempo, increasing it when a player has low health
* storyteller: good idea
* humana: so if you want some music for some maps... Iam here, I have guitar pro .. and domi have a better programm
* miasma: like the time-out music in super mario, oslsachem? ;)
* kiheru: maybe eventually osl. first we need something that works
* humana: good Idea oslachem
* storyteller: yes, miasma :D
* Oslsachem: I guess so, miasma :)
* storyteller: that would be great ^^
* plassy: i'll go too. i will have a look at the java sound api in the next week

Latest revision as of 03:44, 1 March 2010


  • there's a text on sound and music at Stendhal Sound
  • wiki page is quite old and needs to be updated


Types of Music

  • main goal of music is to add ambient/atmosphere
  • music should be played adaptively according to the place and situation, to give it more value.
    • storyteller made some great examples of this, see patch tracker
    • some are very pretty and quiet and suitable for outdoors, a meadow
    • some are dark and scary like for a dungeon
    • a jazz room was suggested, does it fit into the world?
  • need to compromise between file size and loops being long enough not to get monotonic
  • files provided and committed to CVS
    • Deep_Forest.ogg (This music by storyteller from patch 2665588 is ideal for outdoors as it has bir..., 2009)
    • Demiurgo_ANewHomeland.ogg (Added final version of demiurgos song, 2006 )
    • Sacred_Moments.ogg (This piece of music by storyteller from patch 2672345 has a majestic and serious..., 2009)
    • The_Forsaken_Mine.ogg (This is written by storyteller, atmospheric background music ideal for caves or ..., 2009)
    • The_Old_Tavern.ogg (This is written by storyteller, and he comments that ' This background soundtrac..., 2009)

File Format

  • mp3 is problematic
  • midi
    • midi-files can be repeated the whole time aren't so big files and you can make them easy at home
    • midi and linux may be a problem
    • midi would have a retro touch, like lufia or secret of mana or sth.
  • ogg
    • midi files can be converted
    • prefered by many people
    • cannot get the range in midi files as you can in ogg

Controlling the music

  • music is played by client
  • on commands provided by the server
  • music should depended on zone, "atmosphere" property of zone that is sent to client
  • synchronization
    • there is an unwritten rule that all the players should see the same thing
    • problem: player A enters a zone, the music starts to play, player B enters 30 seconds later. For them to hear the same thing the music for player B has to start 30 seconds in
    • the music should fade in, there is no need to hear it from the start
    • music is not really part of the game world so it may be okay to start at the beginning every time, to make coding simpler for now
  • other triggers
    • there might be special music during a fight against a very strong monsters
    • it was suggested that music may be faster when low on health

Multiple programs with music

  • music should only be played if the Stendhal client is the active window
  • so when you have two clients open (for example while testing) you don't get a mess
  • a workaround would be to mute one client manually.
  • for example when the other music source is not related to Stendhal

Shipping Music Files

  • the music files should be shipped with the client, just like tiles and images are, but as a separate package
  • streaming is considered to consume too much resources like bandwidth, streaming is not required for synchronizing
  • plan:
    1. Make /mute persistent (#2880973).
    2. include the sound files in stendhal-0.xx.zip (it made sense to have an extra download years ago when the music was twice as large as the client, but that is not true anymore)
    3. include the music files in stendhal-FULL-0.xx.zip

Other

  • we need to be carefully when taking music from any other sources because they may be copyrighted although marked as free
  • it should be possible to switch sound/music off
  • music needs quite a bit of coding, the existing sound system needs some cleanup
  • there are ogg files provided to test with, so the missing computer code is the show stopper

Volunteers

  • storyteller and miasma volunteered to do the music
  • hendrik volunteered to fix /mute and include the sound files into the normal stendhal-0.xx.zip download, so that the music files can go into stendhal-FULL-0.xx.zip
  • plassy volunteered to do the java coding
  • it may be a good idea to join #arianne on irc freenode. Please ask there if you have any questions or issues.
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